Tony Anthony and Avanti Ministries derail

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Trollshido
61

If it can be shown conclusively that TA is a fantasist, then it is quite reasonable to point to the 1972 series as the probable inspiration for his story. However it has to be allowed that the similarities between the two stories may be a result of the diligent research carried out by the series makers, in their desire to accurately portray aspects of an authentic initiation.

I am not coming down on one side or the other. I just feel that it is vital that we pursue this matter to a satisfactory conclusion, if at all possible.

Now we may have a problem: Tony’s silence may be due to his having something (much?) to hide. Or it may be that he is a very busy man, in huge demand, working to his limit, with a young family to care for, who is fed up with being called a fake and who has decided not to answer those who he feels have definitively prejudged him. If this is the case, then we are left with no more than our opinions.

I agree that the Companies House discrepancies need addressing, and that such discrepancies are not in his favour. Also it is not in his favour that he has a conviction for perverting the course of justice. Nor is it in his favour that he publicly admits to stealing roses for his wife, as a Christian. But none of this proves that his main story is false. In fact it could be argued that his admission of these failings indicate some degree of honesty about himself.

Terraform, you said earlier that you are hoping to meet up with Tony. I would encourage you to do so if at all possible and let us know how you get on.

62

Terrafirma,
Have you read this whole thread?

63

[quote=terrafirma;2280567] However it has to be allowed that the similarities between the two stories may be a result of the diligent research carried out by the series makers, in their desire to accurately portray aspects of an authentic initiation.
[/quote]

The fight scenes in the TV show were choreographed by a judo guy. It featured a Chinese Kung-Fu master played by a white man with no martial arts experience, despite the fact that Bruce Lee was available and eager to play the part. Does that sound authentic to you?

64

Exactly, the series Kung Fu, while very entertaining etc, is pretty much a western interpretation of Chinese martial arts and Buddhist beliefs at the time, it’s pretty full of cliches and stereotypes, and thats exactly what TA is portraying, some image which ignorant people accept.

Folk like us see through it because it simply does not ring true at any level, his claims are full of FAIL and mirror the claims of bullshitters and snake oil salesman of the martial arts, the world over.

The burden of proof is entirely on him, because quite frankly unless he can produce something, which he won’t, it looks like exactly what it is, a made up story based on popular fiction.

65

[quote=Terraform;2280599]Terrafirma,
Have you read this whole thread?[/quote]
Yes, I have.

I appreciate why there is so much doubt about this guy. And I agree that he should come out and defend himself. But I still maintain that the case against him is not proved. That is why I would encourage everyone not to give up. It should be possible to nail him on something, if he is a complete fake. If he is a fake, and the pressure on him is maintained, I am confident that he will crack. My only interest is in pushing this to its conclusion.

Everything has been questioned throughout this thread - even down to his appearance, nationality, first language, presence or otherwise of scarring, but nothing has been settled. That is very frustrating. It must be possible for a start for someone close to him to tell us whether he speaks the language for example, whether there is even any Chinese blood in him, whether he has any background in Kung Fu, whether he is a skilled calligrapher etc.

If he is a total and utter fraud then it is going to be terrible for his wife and kids and those closest to him. That is why it needs to be proved.

66

New here

Hey ! I am new here…
But i have read the whole thread. For some time ago, i joined the group for Tony Anthony’s fans on Facebook, well known about this thread and the doubt about him.
Then i searched about his personale profile on Facebook and requested friendship with him. When he accepted i posted a link to this site, and the day after we wasn’t friends anymore.
I find that very suspicious.

I am 16 years old, and are on a bordingschool wich believe in Christ
. For 2-3 months ago, Tony Anthony visited the school for a lecture. We were all looking forward to this, well mostly to hear about the Kung fu, but … He spoked in about 1h 30mins, but only 10-15 mins was about Kung fu, wich was very disapointing.
He didn’t came up with any facts, or anything, to support his claims.
He gave away one book for free, to a girl.

Unfortunately i didn’t knew about the whole mystery about him, if i did i would have asked him some questions.

67

Welcome Chris ! As you see this is not a Christian forum. People on this thread are united by their common skepticism on TA story.
Anyway, Chris here is proof that the kung fu story is the main ‘catch’ of TA for his ministry. Should Tony have started a ministry strictly based on studying the Bible, we would have no business with him, right ? In TA case, absence of proof is clear proof, for me.

68

Thanks.
I know it’s not a christian forum :slight_smile: And im clear with that.
I think the case is interesting, because he uses his past, where he claims many suspecious things, to preach the gospel.
And serious, i hope you guys get more evidence and so on, because i don’t think he is telling the whole true. .
And i know many christian people whom believe in him, only because of the message he is sending …

True, if he can’t prove anything, then he is false.
You guys have done a nice work, and it looks like he can’t prove anyting…

69

ChrisKjeldsen, welcome and thank you so much for posting here, your post is important and significant.

This is where I yet again express my concern that Tony is “befriending” minors (in the UK defined as persons aged under 18 years) on facebook.

If Tony was making his money in any other way then there would be no way that he could go around contacting children and young people in this way.

For the record, I am not accusing Tony of anything here, just expressing very serious concern about his unboundaried behaviour, both in terms of being in direct contact with minors via social networking sites and also in terms of gift giving to minors.

If Tony and his associates have the kinds of serious criminal pasts that they claim, they would have to be very thoroughly vetted before going anywhere near minors in schools and other organisations. Providing that proper procedures were followed of course. In Tony’s case it looks like he uses his evangelists status as a way of bypassing the appropriate checks and monitoring systems.

The churches and schools that Tony is visiting should a) be asking to see the original copy of his enhanced CRB check and making a copy of the document for their records b) they should make it very clear that children and young people understand the dangers of “befriending” adults on facebook and other social networking sites.

FWIW I am of the firm belief that some people with serious criminal pasts can provide valuable guidance to children and young people, but I do believe that we have to be extremely careful and discerning about who kids are exposed to in this respect.

I once had the pleasure of working on a training program with kids and one of facilitators was a women who had done very hard time for drug smuggling and various other drug and violence related offenses. This woman was really open about her life in a way that helped young people understand the seriousness of offending. This woman actually had a special certificate from the Home Office to say that she had been subject to an especially rigorous
vetting procedure and was considered to be a person suitable for working with kids.

Somehow I cannot imagine that Tony has been through anything like that level of scrutiny and examination and yet the crimes he confesses to in his book and his presentations are even more serious than the crimes that this woman committed.

I would also just like to post this link in case any children / young people want to know more about internet safety.

http://www.thinkuknow.co.uk/

70

[COLOR=#cccccc]terrafirma[/COLO"]terrafirma - Member Profile - Bullshido i would suggest you reread a bit more carefully this time.

Pay special attention to who is involved in his ministry and their background…

Also compare some dates that tony gives in the book, you will soon then see that there is no possibility for the stories he told to happen.

I still don’t want to publish the time line before Tony publishes his FAQ, as i believe we can catch him out with some of the dates he published in his story.

Maybe someone can someone, who has followed along with the saga, can write a quick summary for new members, who aren’t reading the forum too cleary.

71

I have to disagree

I could claim that a wild goshawk flew down from the sky in central London and landed on my wrist where is stayed and allowed me to stroke it.

Such a claim would be of course ludicrous, almost as ludicrous as Tony’s story about the white tiger. To say that it could have happened simply because goshawks exist in London is ignoring the complete implausibility of the claim.

To suggest that there is no point in pursuing Tony over such a claim is illogical as surely it is up to Tony to prove such claims, just as the onus would be on me to prove any completely implausible that I might make.

Have you actually read this thread?

When you posts stuff like this it suggests that you have not.

Surely, given the business that he is in and how much money he is raking in, it would be truly astonishing of Tony had not read up on Christian conversion experiences. There is hardly a shortage of books to read on the subject, as the revenue streams of Christian publishers and Amazon books sales rankings will attest.

72

I am surprised that you are getting so easily rattled. To date nothing has been proved. That is a fact, and considering the length of the thread, it is a sobering one.

I am trying to push things forward so that we get to the truth. Simply repeating “liar, liar, liar” has never proved anything.

I fail to see how you are going to deliver your killer blow by going on about details such as the tiger, which are unproveable.

What we need to do is take a step back, take a deep breath and compose ourselves, try to disengage ourselves emotionally, and start using our little grey cells effectively. I would not have expected that too much to ask of a martial arts forum.

Yes, I have read this thread through, now more than once, and it displays at times much lack of self control and emotional and intellectual immaturity.

Santeria: I would also suggest that you re-read the book. Have you ever actually read it? After all, you are the one who falsely adds “cubs” into the story about the tiger.

I am surprised for example that the moderators allow the use of the c word to stand, and other such insulting tirades, made in a cowardly and anonymous manner towards a named, public figure.

However I am very interested in following this matter through to the end. So far we have proved nothing against this man. It is all supposition, suspicion, and mainly hot air. That is why you should focus on the matters that are proveable, rather than those that certainly are not.

For example, you should start with establishing whether there is any evidence of a genuine, proveable Chinese connection, and whether he speaks and writes the language fluently. It has been suggested in this thread that he doesn’t even look Chinese etc. So, why not find out the truth? If he is not fluent in the language he claims as his first language, then the game is over.

But, if he is fluent in Cantonese, you should then ask youself “Why? How did he learn this? Does this indicate that his claim to have lived in China as a child may be true?” You could then go on from there.

Is it because you are running out of steam that you are turning your guns on fellow posters? Surely you have enough to follow up without dividing the forum into factions? If you do that, you will certainly never arrive at the truth, as you will have dissipated your energy and gained nothing.

73

[quote=terrafirma;2282002]I am surprised that you are getting so easily rattled. To date nothing has been proved. That is a fact, and considering the length of the thread, it is a sobering one.

I am trying to push things forward so that we get to the truth. Simply repeating “liar, liar, liar” has never proved anything.

I fail to see how you are going to deliver your killer blow by going on about details such as the tiger, which are unproveable.

What we need to do is take a step back, take a deep breath and compose ourselves, try to disengage ourselves emotionally, and start using our little grey cells effectively. I would not have expected that too much to ask of a martial arts forum.

Yes, I have read this thread through, now more than once, and it displays at times much lack of self control and emotional and intellectual immaturity.

Santeria: I would also suggest that you re-read the book. Have you ever actually read it? After all, you are the one who falsely adds “cubs” into the story about the tiger.

I am surprised for example that the moderators allow the use of the c word to stand, and other such insulting tirades, made in a cowardly and anonymous manner towards a named, public figure.

However I am very interested in following this matter through to the end. So far we have proved nothing against this man. It is all supposition, suspicion, and mainly hot air. That is why you should focus on the matters that are proveable, rather than those that certainly are not.

For example, you should start with establishing whether there is any evidence of a genuine, proveable Chinese connection, and whether he speaks and writes the language fluently. It has been suggested in this thread that he doesn’t even look Chinese etc. So, why not find out the truth? If he is not fluent in the language he claims as his first language, then the game is over.

But, if he is fluent in Cantonese, then you should then ask youself “Why? How did he learn this? Does this indicate that his claim to have lived in China as a child may be true.” You could then go on from there.

Is it because you are running out of steam that you are turning your guns on fellow posters? Surely you have enough to follow up without dividing the forum into factions? If you do that, you will certainly never arrive at the truth, as you will have dissipated your energy and gained nothing.[/quote]

You are entirely missing the point

Either Tony’s story is fiction or part fiction (I suspect the latter) or Tony is a serial murderer who has yet to be brought to justice for his crimes.

A brief summary of facts so far

  1. Tony Anthony (not his real name) claims to be a 3 x world kung fu champion, serial murderer involved in very serious crimes, caresser of a wild white tiger in China and a victim of child abuse. He also claims to have tiger scars on his wrists resulting from an impossible task reminiscent of the opening credits to the 1970s TV series kung fu.

  2. All contact with Tony’s publisher, ghost writer and agent has confirmed that none of them took any steps to validate Tony’s story, even though the publicity blurb for his book and videos states that his story is incredible and that “truth is stranger than fiction”.

  3. Tony has responded to perfectly reasonable and logical questions seeking clarification regarding the numerous inconsistencies, ludicrous claims and impossible events in Tony’s book, not with answers but with anodyne proclamations about God and Jesus.

  4. Various evangelists at Avanti Ministries claim to have personal backgrounds in serious organised crime. One was only released from jail in 2007 having escaped justice for some of the most serious crimes he claims to have committed. Either they are lying / exaggerating about their pasts or we have an extraordinary situation where a bunch of serious criminals are generating significant revenue by visiting school children.

  5. One, apparently very credible, poster here, a Christian evangelist, claims that Tony stole his work and is now claiming it as his own.

  6. Tony Anthony, either a liar / fantasist or, if you believe his stories, a serial killer with links to organised criminals and even a PLO terrorist, is not only visiting schools all over the world and having privileged access to children, but is actually communicating with them directly via social networking sites.

74

Santeria, great summary. i would suggest you update and repeat it from time to time. To no1 I may add: when confronted directly, TA uses to downsize his claims from ‘World champion’ to some obscure chinese contests or even garage illegal fights.

75

falsifiability

It’s something I wanted to bring to discussion for a few days:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
All this late long long talk about who should or can prove whatever in TA case is about the falsifiability of his position. It is about TA story being one that can or cannot be proved false. Of course many things cannot be proved false in an absolute manner (like the stuff with the white tiger). On the other side, many of his affirmations can be proved false.

One more thing. TA used his kung fu phantasy to launch his evangelistic ministry. Now, his ministry is successful enough to allow him to have ‘character’ recommendations that indirectly seem to validate his kung fu story. This is a sick example of circular logic unfortunately put into practice.

76

Santeria: Just to clarify where you are coming from, please answer these questions:

  1. Have you read TA’s book?
  2. Do you have a copy to refer to?
  3. If not, why not?
  4. If so, why did you add to the story about the tiger to include cubs?

I would appreciate your early reply, so that we can proceed with a clearer understanding of who is coming from where.

77

@ terrafirma

  1. in part
  2. no
  3. because life’s too short to read fake memoirs. My friend and neighbour, a Buddhist who enjoys kung fu films and inspiring autobiographies has a copy. We spent an evening of mirth looking at it together and reading bits aloud after I discovered this thread.
  4. It is not a crime to make a mistake about part of a story. It is a crime to murder people, which is why this thread is about Tony Anthony and not about me. If I had read Tony’s book I would have submitted an Amazon review trust me. In fact if I have time over Christmas I will read it from cover to cover simply so that I can write an Amazon review.

I don’t think you have quite got the hand of how the whole credibility thing works have you?

You see it’s not up to me to prove anything. I am not the one touring the world raking in cash on the back of a book full of fantastical, incredible claims.

I’m not the one claiming to have murdered people.

If we assume that Tony’s story and the stories of his associates at Avanti Ministries are even half true then we have an interesting situation where a murderer with a group of criminal associates is currently touring schools all over the world and communicating directly with minors via facebook, all with the support of evangelical churches.

You see to me, if Tony is telling the truth (and I have consistently said that I think that his story is true in some aspects*) then the situation is infinitely worse and more concerning than if the whole book is a pack of lies and fantasies.

Not all preachers are good people

In some ways Tony reminds me of The Reverend Harry Powell

“Not that you mind the killings! There’s plenty of killings in your book, Lord”

You see, call me weird, but I don’t think it’s OK to get away with murdering people simply because you claim to be a “man of God”.

  • I think this likely simply because of the coincidences in the similarities between the stories re organised crime of some of the Avanti evangelists. I don’t believe the tiger story for a second, or the nonsense about tiger brands on his arms.
78

Santeria has not read Tony’s book

Overseas: Please read the above reply from Santeria very carefully. Santeria is one of the most prolific posters on this matter. If I have time this morning I will give a more detailed and considered reply to his post. But for now note the following:

  1. Santeria has not read Tony’s book. All he has done is sit with a friend for an evening mocking and laughing at bits of it as they read parts aloud to one another.

  2. He does not even have a copy to refer to when making his allegations.

  3. He does not have the time to read it, but does have the time to compose lengthy posts on this forum, which lack careful research.

  4. He is dedicated to destroying TA with whatever means he can come up with - even playing dirty if the end justifies the means.

  5. He has no interest in reaching the truth, but has made his judgement and will stick to it whatever the truth turns out to be. In fact he is not interested in bringing light to bear on the matter.

And finally for now, some questions for us all to consider: What does BS mean? Can you point to anyone posting on this forum who is full of it? If so, who?

79

[quote=terrafirma;2282598]
And finally for now, some questions for us all to consider: What does BS mean? Can you point to anyone posting on this forum who is full of it? If so, who?[/quote]

Is it you?

Because you are the one that appears to be defending someone who is clearly a liar and a fraud, by attacking someone who is asking some very clear quastions about said liar and fraud.

80

No. Try again.

To help you let me give you a couple of clues:

  1. It is someone who has not read TA’s book, but speaks as if he has authority on the matter.

  2. It is someone who has made such a final judgement that you would think he had at least a grasp of the basic facts, when in fact he has not.