Optimizing my return to Judo?

Basic and Misc. Fighting Technique Discussion
41

[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2886268][QUOTE=BKR;2886267]

That’s food for thought.[/QUOTE]

Hopefully it won’t give you indigestion…

The ballistic nature of judo randori and competition (especially), and the often awkward position/angles involved, especially by lower skilled judoka, make Tani Otoshi especially problematic in my experience. I rarely see it anymore in the level of competition my students compete in (u16, u18, u21, 4 going to Canadian Nationals this weekend to compete). The strong back counters (Ushiro Goshi, Ura Nage, and especially Daki Wakare) see more prevalent.

Tani Otoshi is a strong and good throw, no doubt about it, though. I forgot to mention that if you hit it very strongly, you can put uke right on the back of his head, so add concussion to the list…

Compared to using it in self defense situations, or to enter groundwork for say, a non-judo grappling match, in a “pure” judo situation it’s probably a bit slower and more controlled.

42

[QUOTE=goodlun;2886269][QUOTE=BKR;2886267]

What aspects are a Jump around and a turn out?[/QUOTE]

Jump around is dodging.

Turn out is a form of dodging as well, or a form of ukemi, depending on how it happens.

You could consider turn out to be a separate category as well.

Turnout is what you do when you did not dodge, block, or counter successfully.

It’s an interesting question how to approach teaching Judo (for competition), whether or not to teach turnouts and worry about dodge/block/counter later. I teach turnouts before I teach counters and blocks, but not before dodging. Many counters blend in very well with dodging, but they are not specific counter throws.

Think: Uke attacks with Ouchi Gari, tori avoids/dodges by moving his leg, turns, and throws with a forward throw (classic would be some type of Seoi Nage). That combines a dodge with a “normal” throw used as a counter throw.

So for me it’s:
Dodging/dodging to counter with non-specialized counter throw for quite a while.

Dodging is involved in the counter throws as well, as is blocking.

In any case, then I teach hip-cut blocks (which are hard to do, and take time to get the hang of), then full on counters.

So, uke tries Osoto Gari, tori reverses to Osoto Gaeshi (which is really just Osoto Gari countered with Osoto Gari), and that involves adjustment of angle (dodge).

Of course, gripping plays a huge role in negating throws before they even happen…

43

[QUOTE=BKR;2886270][QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2886268]

Hopefully it won’t give you indigestion…

The ballistic nature of judo randori and competition (especially), and the often awkward position/angles involved, especially by lower skilled judoka, make Tani Otoshi especially problematic in my experience. I rarely see it anymore in the level of competition my students compete in (u16, u18, u21, 4 going to Canadian Nationals this weekend to compete). The strong back counters (Ushiro Goshi, Ura Nage, and especially Daki Wakare) see more prevalent.

Tani Otoshi is a strong and good throw, no doubt about it, though. I forgot to mention that if you hit it very strongly, you can put uke right on the back of his head, so add concussion to the list…

Compared to using it in self defense situations, or to enter groundwork for say, a non-judo grappling match, in a “pure” judo situation it’s probably a bit slower and more controlled.[/QUOTE]

I teach it from a body lock for beginners which is a pretty soft version. I know a version were you snatch them by the by the back of the jacket and rip their head back back as you fall. That shit may end someone if it was done on concrete. It definitely splats them that’s for sure.

44

I’ve never considered Tani an unsafe throw however I rarely used it as a counter against a forward throw attempt. I used it more in this way:

//youtu.be/vlehgrbCPXk

45

[QUOTE=DCS;2886280]I’ve never considered Tani an unsafe throw however I rarely used it as a counter against a forward throw attempt. I used it more in this way:

//youtu.be/vlehgrbCPXk
[/QUOTE]

That’s a nice throw set.

46

[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2886276][QUOTE=BKR;2886270]

I teach it from a body lock for beginners which is a pretty soft version. I know a version were you snatch them by the by the back of the jacket and rip their head back back as you fall. That shit may end someone if it was done on concrete. It definitely splats them that’s for sure.[/QUOTE]

No doubt it done slowly and with a lot of control, it’s a safe enough throw/takedown. Context uber alles…

Yeah, even on a good mat if you dump the guy hard and fast, a concussion is very possible.

Few people seem to realize as well that if you understand the throw (and many others) well, you can seriously damage, on purpose, a person’s knee(s), ankle(s). Tani Otoshi is one of those throws…Kani Basami is another, plus most of the reaping/hooking types of ashi waza (foot/leg techniques).

47

[QUOTE=DCS;2886280]I’ve never considered Tani an unsafe throw however I rarely used it as a counter against a forward throw attempt. I used it more in this way:

//youtu.be/vlehgrbCPXk
[/QUOTE]

That is known in competitive judo as “The Twitch”, and is an application of either Tani Otoshi, Kosoto Gari, or Kosoto Gake, depending on uke reaction and the grip/angles involved. I introduce it around green or blue belt level (sankyu or nikyu). Students need good body control to be able to master it, as the timing is harder than it looks.

I into Tani Otoshi not as a counter, but as a direct attack. I like to have the students hold each other in jigotai (defensive posture)…like this… although not at the speed Mifune does it, LOL (those videos may be off on the frame rate as well).

Rayce, maybe that will give you an idea of the difference between doing Tani Otoshi from a body lock situation and from a “pure judo throwing” point of view. There is all sort of potential for mayhem on the part of Mifune in the video, from going against uke knee, to not using his hands to control uke in a larger circle.

//youtu.be/tLKT_ZkVl6w

For a big overview…notice the leg grab (Kuchiki Daoshi), and then the one-hand grip version (which I love and used to do a lot). Those would be useful in BJJ/wrestling as well.

//youtu.be/G3PHJdyjz8o

48

[QUOTE=BKR;2886294]I into Tani Otoshi not as a counter, but as a direct attack. I like to have the students hold each other in jigotai (defensive posture)…like this… [/QUOTE]
Like this?

//youtu.be/vX4uVWnS-Hs

49

[QUOTE=DCS;2886299]Like this?

//youtu.be/vX4uVWnS-Hs
[/QUOTE]

Joder…

No, absolutely not.

50

[QUOTE=BKR;2886300]Joder…

No, absolutely not.[/QUOTE]

Joder?

51

[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2886304]Joder?[/QUOTE]

It’s slang in Castellano, he’ll get it…

52

[QUOTE=BKR;2886294]I into Tani Otoshi not as a counter, but as a direct attack. I like to have the students hold each other in jigotai (defensive posture)…like this… although not at the speed Mifune does it, LOL (those videos may be off on the frame rate as well). [/QUOTE]
That’s not tani-otoshi that Mifune is doing there though, looks like uki-waza to me.

53

[QUOTE=NeilG;2886333]That’s not tani-otoshi that Mifune is doing there though, looks like uki-waza to me.[/QUOTE]

Front-Front corner is Uki Waza
Side is Yoko Otoshi
Rear/rear corner is Tani Otoshi

That’s how I differentiate.

However, if differentiate by otoshi (straight down pull), versus uki (floating), then I definitely see your point.

54

[QUOTE=NeilG;2886333]That’s not tani-otoshi that Mifune is doing there though, looks like uki-waza to me.[/QUOTE]

Somebody help me out, here, I’m not a judoka. Looks to me like several distinct, though similar, techniques. I guess the main difference I see in these videos is if tori’s leg contacts uke’s leg - a trip vs. a throw. With the trip, I see two variations - a single leg, or a double leg. With the throw, there are at least two variations, as well.

55

[QUOTE=BKR;2886334]Front-Front corner is Uki Waza
Side is Yoko Otoshi
Rear/rear corner is Tani Otoshi

That’s how I differentiate.

However, if differentiate by otoshi (straight down pull), versus uki (floating), then I definitely see your point.[/QUOTE]Well it was both floating and front-corner, so it’s all uki-waza in my book.

56

[QUOTE=submessenger;2886335]Somebody help me out, here, I’m not a judoka. Looks to me like several distinct, though similar, techniques. I guess the main difference I see in these videos is if tori’s leg contacts uke’s leg - a trip vs. a throw. With the trip, I see two variations - a single leg, or a double leg. With the throw, there are at least two variations, as well.[/QUOTE]There isn’t really much of a trip in any of these, the throwing motion is either caused by tori’s dropping action and the hands mostly. With yoko-otoshi and uki-waza, uke goes for a roll, but with tani-otoshi he generally gets dumped straight back.

57

Here’s a Tani Otoshi for if you find out the dude slept with your chic. [video=youtube_share;ct0uhejhRZc]http://youtu.be/ct0uhejhRZc[/video]

58

[QUOTE=submessenger;2886335]Somebody help me out, here, I’m not a judoka. Looks to me like several distinct, though similar, techniques. I guess the main difference I see in these videos is if tori’s leg contacts uke’s leg - a trip vs. a throw. With the trip, I see two variations - a single leg, or a double leg. With the throw, there are at least two variations, as well.[/QUOTE]

Judo gets like this. They are all in the same spirit. A sacrifice throw with a sliding leg.
I have to look a lot of the throws names up. I know the throws but not the names. In wrasslin’ and bjj the don’t have these names.

59

[QUOTE=NeilG;2886337]There isn’t really much of a trip in any of these, the throwing motion is either caused by tori’s dropping action and the hands mostly. With yoko-otoshi and uki-waza, uke goes for a roll, but with tani-otoshi he generally gets dumped straight back.[/QUOTE]

Yea. the way explain this throw is you want it to be like a rope is tied to uke and a 200 lb weight tied to the other end of said rope was thrown off a building roof they were standing on and they get yanked down

The Japanese name makes sense.
Tani Otoshi - Valley drop.

60

Rayce, BKR, NeilG… I probably would not mind if one of you guys did this throw to me as I would think with your experience in BJJ and/or Judo you would perform this correctly on me without much injury other than possibly my head crashing into the mat. This other guy in my class on the other hand is a fat uncoordinated hard ass who was just doing Tani and other Sutemi Waza as counters because he is too lazy to try real throws that were taught in class. I’ve read before that most good Judo instructors don’t teach Tani until brown belt for the reasons mentioned above