[QUOTE=submessenger;2886335]Somebody help me out, here, I’m not a judoka. Looks to me like several distinct, though similar, techniques. I guess the main difference I see in these videos is if tori’s leg contacts uke’s leg - a trip vs. a throw. With the trip, I see two variations - a single leg, or a double leg. With the throw, there are at least two variations, as well.[/QUOTE]
If you mean Tani Otoshi, there are different entries. How many legs doesn’t matter. Otoshi means “drop” or to pull straight down. Trip isn’t a term used in Judo formally. You don’t have to touch the leg/foot to do the throw.
[QUOTE=BKR;2886344]I think that Uki Waza was included in the yoko sutemi video with Tani Otoshi…
Of course if its to the front or front corner it’s Uki Otoshi.[/QUOTE]
My blue belt won NAGA with this throw in the finals.
I learned this from the Kazawaki (sp?) Videos you turned me on to. He teaches it in a very athletic manner. Where you jump to the top of the triangle and spin on touch down and fling them. This puts you in a good spot for side control or back take.
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2886347]My blue belt won NAGA with this throw in the finals.
I learned this from the Kazawaki (sp?) Videos you turned me on to. He teaches it in a very athletic manner. Where you jump to the top of the triangle and spin on touch down and fling them. This puts you in a good spot for side control or back take.
That man moves like a panther. He’s amazing.[/QUOTE]
You know, he took up sutemi waza because he broke his elbow too many times, and could not do the usual turning throws like Morote Seoi Nage.
I know a couple of guys who have trained with him…actually, make that 3. Two of them spent extensive time in Japan with him. Both were/are in awe of the man. The other got pinned by him at a training session and said he felt like he was a little kids doing Judo with a grown up, LOL !
Truly an amazing athlete and technician, as well as a great teacher. In fact, his profession was high school teacher.
[QUOTE=PittsKuntaoer;2886342]I’ve read before that most good Judo instructors don’t teach Tani until brown belt for the reasons mentioned above[/QUOTE]
Opinions vary. Judo instructors/schools all develop their own models for teaching.
However, it is perhaps noteworthy to observe where Tani Otoshi sits within the aged but still valuable Kodokan Gokyo curriculum…
[QUOTE=BKR;2886343]If you mean Tani Otoshi, there are different entries. How many legs doesn’t matter. Otoshi means “drop” or to pull straight down. Trip isn’t a term used in Judo formally. You don’t have to touch the leg/foot to do the throw.[/QUOTE]
Gake (“cliff”) raises an interesting translation conundrum…
Sometimes the language in Judo borders on the poetic, which can actually be problematic.
But, I have heard several people describe Gake throws as pushing the upper body away from you while driving them over their lower body, which stays close to you.
I frankly frequently simply the concept by calling throws like Kosoto-Gake’s “trips”.
To further compound the issue, the wrestling “inside trip” is basically a fully committed ouchi-gake where Tori goes to the ground as part of the finish in the Wrestling version.
I love language, but there are so many names…
“Gake” in the context we are talking about means “hook” not cliff. There are three basic movements that get called “trips” by non-judo people: sweep, reap and hook, aka harai, gari and gake.
[QUOTE=NeilG;2886353]“Gake” in the context we are talking about means “hook” not cliff. There are three basic movements that get called “trips” by non-judo people: sweep, reap and hook, aka harai, gari and gake.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, we see the word “hook” in English translations for sure.
But I think that
Tani really is the word for Valley in Japanese
Gake really is the word for Cliff in Japanese.
Japanese has several other words for hook or “to hook”,
(Japan being a fishing culture)
But Gake is not one of them.
I am not disagreeing that the action may be said to be one of hooking.
I am just pointing out that the language is the language and often has literal meanings in Japan that are often different than our English translations of convenience for Judo/martial arts purposes.
If you or someone else has fluency in conversational Japan and I am wrong,
then I apologize in advance.
[QUOTE=BKR;2886348]You know, he took up sutemi waza because he broke his elbow too many times, and could not do the usual turning throws like Morote Seoi Nage.
I know a couple of guys who have trained with him…actually, make that 3. Two of them spent extensive time in Japan with him. Both were/are in awe of the man. The other got pinned by him at a training session and said he felt like he was a little kids doing Judo with a grown up, LOL !
Truly an amazing athlete and technician, as well as a great teacher. In fact, his profession was high school teacher.[/QUOTE]
I’m getting there with my elbows, sigh… Just broke that right one, and the joint capsule in my left one is fucked. Morote seoi is my number one most successful throw, too.
[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2886355]Yeah, we see the word “hook” in English translations for sure.
But I think that
Tani really is the word for Valley in Japanese
Gake really is the word for Cliff in Japanese.
Japanese has several other words for hook or “to hook”,
(Japan being a fishing culture)
But Gake is not one of them.
I am not disagreeing that the action may be said to be one of hooking.
I am just pointing out that the language is the language and often has literal meanings in Japan that are often different than our English translations of convenience for Judo/martial arts purposes.
If you or someone else has fluency in conversational Japan and I am wrong,
then I apologize in advance.[/QUOTE]The kanji for “gake” as used in various judo throws is 掛, as in kosoto-gake 小外掛. The one for “gake” meaning cliff is 崖. They are different. There are lots of homonyms in Japanese.
At any rate, the action in any throw that is a hook is not pushing the opponent over a cliff, it is hooking the leg with your leg.
Harai/barai: sweep an unweighted leg. This requires timing the sweep as weight is either just removed from that foot or just as it is moving to that leg.
Gari: reap a weighted leg. For example, in a classical o-soto-gari, we use kuzushi to get the opponent’s weight transferred to a back corner, and finish by reaping that weighted leg.
Gake: hook a weighted leg. There’s a lot of blur between the reap and the hook, but if you’re doing the pure hook you are mostly pulling up on the leg with your leg, not reaping through.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2886364]I’m getting there with my elbows, sigh… Just broke that right one, and the joint capsule in my left one is fucked. Morote seoi is my number one most successful throw, too.[/QUOTE]
See you are just a game change away from a Sambo World Championship! It worked for him! I think he won it twice? But I would have to Google it. Hes one of my favorite fighters to watch.
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2886376]See you are just a game change away from a Sambo World Championship! It worked for him! I think he won it twice? But I would have to Google it. Hes one of my favorite fighters to watch.[/QUOTE]
Back in the 70s, I believe. I just don’t like a lot of sacrifice throws because of the risks associated with positioning.
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2886377]You speak Japanese correct?[/QUOTE]
My Japanese skils are limited to some JMA lingo and cutting and pasting in online dictionaries.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2886378]Back in the 70s, I believe. I just don’t like a lot of sacrifice throws because of the risks associated with positioning.
Something to get better at![/QUOTE]
Our sports are different and my guard is a stong point of mine so I love them. I don’t know a lot about sambo scoring. You tossing them and you staying standing is ideal so seio nage makes more sense I suppose.
Slight topic change… what would be some good learning resources for working the Georgian grip?
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2886380]Our sports are different and my guard is a stong point of mine so I love them. I don’t know a lot about sambo scoring. You tossing them and you staying standing is ideal so seio nage makes more sense I suppose.
Slight topic change… what would be some good learning resources for working the Georgian grip?[/QUOTE]
Copy and paste the following words into youtube: грузийский захват and ქართული ჭიდაობა
That should give you some ideas to work with, although the languages may be Russian and Georgian, respectively. Superstar judo also has some good stuff with Ole Bischof and Euan Burton on the Georgian grip.