Optimizing my return to Judo?

Basic and Misc. Fighting Technique Discussion
21

[QUOTE=BKR;2882555]1.) Welcome to Judo…
2.) Regarding falling (ukemi): If you are falling like that, it means you are scared. Probably because landing hurts given your physical ailments. You are trying to protect yourself, and end up injuring/hurting yourself (shoulder). Sounds like you may need to slow down and work on getting used to falling, learning the correct position to land in, etc. Hopefully your instructor can help you with that. He/she should have already noticed your issues and be taking corrective action, if not, you should ask for help.
a.) work on being “thrown” from your knees or one knee rather than standing.
b.) work on your ukemi alone, drilling landing positions from low positions until you feel more comfortable.
c.) If you are doing randori, back off. lack of falling skills or physical issues with falling require you to be more patient and take it slowly.
3.) Ashi Waza: De Ashi Barai is one of the easiest falls in Judo, and I would think you could do it without hurting yourself.
a.) Try De Ashi Barai with uke and yourself moving sideways, both of you with one foot forward, if you are in right hand stance, more to your right and sweep uke right foot with your left foot, or, you as tori can stand in shizenhontai (square stance). This This can start out as a ukemi drill more than throwing practice.

Your instructor should be able to design a program for you to work around your physical issues. Be aware though that Judo, even when done well, is often not the most comfortable thing in the world.[/QUOTE]

Better advice than what I said.

For sure, learn to walk (fall correctly)
Before trying to run (worry about throwing people).

And all the best principles of both Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are found in De Ashi Barai.

22

[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2882558]Better advice than what I said.

For sure, learn to walk (fall correctly)
Before trying to run (worry about throwing people).

And all the best principles of both Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are found in De Ashi Barai.[/QUOTE]

I think you can learn to walk and walk faster then jog then trot then run, all depending on ability.

Someone with painful physical ailments will take longer, and may well never run very fast if at all, depending.

One major factor is the coach/teacher. If he isn’t taking into account what’s going on with the student physically, and working around and/or designing training to match ability, then it’s a tough row to hoe.

23

thank you

thank you for the advice.

in regards to falling, during a throw since they think I will be a lot harder to throw because of my size, they will often over throw me causing me to WAY over rotate me. When I over rotate, instead of landing with my arm out, I protect and tuck it back in. Plus the bigger you are, the harder you fall scenario applies here. When I use Ippon Seoinage, people told me they think they are going to die from being throw from a high position. The other way around with me being thrown is just the same. I will have to mention that to my teacher

My teacher is very good, the best I have come across. I looked around before going to a school, and he comes from a great tradition in Judo. He is Korean Judoka 6th degree, which is a good fit since I have Korean blood in me as well. I have told him about my condition. I told him that I cannot do BJJ/ne waza because being torqued in weird positions hurts my hips pretty bad. I can do the BJJ tech, but I cannot do any rolling/sparring at all with a partner.

My hip impingement syndrome allows in line movement, but no movement to the side. I can throw front kicks and back kicks, but I cannot throw kicks to the side like side kicks or round kicks anymore. Osoto Gari and Uchi Mata are ok for me to do because the movement is inline. Tai Otoshi is the one I have to adapt to using a leg that is jutting out. I have had two hip surgeries already, but the bone grew back in even worse than before.

Again, thank both of you BKR and WFMurphyPhD for you help.

24

The body has a good memory, so you’ll be back on track soon.

fightersnation.uk

25

[QUOTE=PittsKuntaoer;2882578]thank you for the advice.

in regards to falling, during a throw since they think I will be a lot harder to throw because of my size, they will often over throw me causing me to WAY over rotate me. When I over rotate, instead of landing with my arm out, I protect and tuck it back in. Plus the bigger you are, the harder you fall scenario applies here. When I use Ippon Seoinage, people told me they think they are going to die from being throw from a high position. The other way around with me being thrown is just the same. I will have to mention that to my teacher

My teacher is very good, the best I have come across. I looked around before going to a school, and he comes from a great tradition in Judo. He is Korean Judoka 6th degree, which is a good fit since I have Korean blood in me as well. I have told him about my condition. I told him that I cannot do BJJ/ne waza because being torqued in weird positions hurts my hips pretty bad. I can do the BJJ tech, but I cannot do any rolling/sparring at all with a partner.

My hip impingement syndrome allows in line movement, but no movement to the side. I can throw front kicks and back kicks, but I cannot throw kicks to the side like side kicks or round kicks anymore. Osoto Gari and Uchi Mata are ok for me to do because the movement is inline. Tai Otoshi is the one I have to adapt to using a leg that is jutting out. I have had two hip surgeries already, but the bone grew back in even worse than before.

Again, thank both of you BKR and WFMurphyPhD for you help.[/QUOTE]

I see the issue in falling between uke and tori who are of disparate size/strength quite a bit. A couple of factors are involved:
1.) Skill level of both uke and tori. That applies to throwing as well as taking falls (ukemi).
2.) Quality of tatami: floating floor versus tatami (mats) on a hard surface.

What can you do?
1.) Practice your ukemi, but try this sort of thing. It is also good for practicing throwing as tori, as you do not have to support uke weight (depending on throw you may not anyway from standing). You do not have to follow through to a pin, or land on the uke, though, if you don’t want to. The video is looking at more competition applications as part of a progressive drill system.

//youtu.be/efghJErpz30

2.) Get thrown by guys your own size who can control your weight. This may not be possible depending on the size distribution of students at your club.

26

[QUOTE=BKR;2883280]I see the issue in falling between uke and tori who are of disparate size/strength quite a bit. A couple of factors are involved:
1.) Skill level of both uke and tori. That applies to throwing as well as taking falls (ukemi).
2.) Quality of tatami: floating floor versus tatami (mats) on a hard surface.

What can you do?
1.) Practice your ukemi, but try this sort of thing. It is also good for practicing throwing as tori, as you do not have to support uke weight (depending on throw you may not anyway from standing). You do not have to follow through to a pin, or land on the uke, though, if you don’t want to. The video is looking at more competition applications as part of a progressive drill system.

//youtu.be/efghJErpz30

2.) Get thrown by guys your own size who can control your weight. This may not be possible depending on the size distribution of students at your club.[/QUOTE]

I don’t doubt your sensei knows these, just posting for your reference.

//youtu.be/wFL3vYVXvHY

27

now my return to judo was short lived. I got hurt last night. I told the guy about doing the randori light, but this guy went a bit harder. Since he was a belt higher than me, and supposed black belt in JJJ, he went a bit harder than I am used to. I went for koshi guruma, he tried to do a Tani Otoshi while my leg was underneath his body. When he went for it, all of his weight sank onto my knee. I am confused because he was trying throws that weren’t gone over in class. Now I am upset that I cannot get back faster than I wanted. I need to get an MRI now.

28

Sorry you got hurt. Tani otoshi is barred from randori in our club for two reasons: first, it’s an easy counter to many forward throws and so discourages newer people from even attempting a forward throw due to getting stuffed every time, and second as you found out it’s easy to get hurt.

Here’s hoping it’s not too serious.

29

[QUOTE=PittsKuntaoer;2885139]now my return to judo was short lived. I got hurt last night. I told the guy about doing the randori light, but this guy went a bit harder. Since he was a belt higher than me, and supposed black belt in JJJ, he went a bit harder than I am used to. I went for koshi guruma, he tried to do a Tani Otoshi while my leg was underneath his body. When he went for it, all of his weight sank onto my knee. I am confused because he was trying throws that weren’t gone over in class. Now I am upset that I cannot get back faster than I wanted. I need to get an MRI now.[/QUOTE]

Please see the last few posts on the posture thread.

30

[QUOTE=PittsKuntaoer;2885139]now my return to judo was short lived. I got hurt last night. I told the guy about doing the randori light, but this guy went a bit harder. Since he was a belt higher than me, and supposed black belt in JJJ, he went a bit harder than I am used to. I went for koshi guruma, he tried to do a Tani Otoshi while my leg was underneath his body. When he went for it, all of his weight sank onto my knee. I am confused because he was trying throws that weren’t gone over in class. Now I am upset that I cannot get back faster than I wanted. I need to get an MRI now.[/QUOTE]

Sorry you got hurt, mate.

31

[QUOTE=NeilG;2885177]Sorry you got hurt. Tani otoshi is barred from randori in our club for two reasons: first, it’s an easy counter to many forward throws and so discourages newer people from even attempting a forward throw due to getting stuffed every time, and second as you found out it’s easy to get hurt.

Here’s hoping it’s not too serious.[/QUOTE

Looking back on that randori session, now I see what happened as I have went over it in my mind. After we were doing uchikomi, I was practicing my koshi guruma, and my partner asked about Tani Otoshi. My instructor hesitantly said yes but isn’t used much that often. During randori, all this guy did was do Tani Otoshi as a counter after my attempts of Ippon or Morote Seoinage, Tai Otoshi, and Koshi guruma. This was discouraging for me as I am a beginner white belt. It just seemed like a bitch move to do over and over again. I thought the idea of practicing randori was to get good at throws we were taught in class or previous classes. We are more encouraged to use Ashi Wza more than anything other. Never once was Tani Otoshi taught by my instructor. Also seemed like this guy I did randori with was also obsessed with other Sutemi Waza moves too.

I went in to see my teacher today to let him know the injury isn’t that bad. I can put weight on in. I can walk. I just can’t flex my leg all the way in nor can I twist on the leg yet. I move around well only with a mild limp. I asked him about this guy using Tani Otoshi all the time. He said he doesn’t really teach this tech until one gets to the brown belt level. He wants us to move around a lot more and to use more of the common throws in class that he teaches instead of having to rely on Tani Otoshi. I am sure this guy I did randori with picked up this move somewhere else, as he mentioned that he has a black belt in JJJ, and a blue in Gracie JJ. You would think though that someone with this background wouldn’t attempt to do such a throw like this esp since our teacher didn’t teach this yet. My teacher said it is better to use Ura Nage instead of Tani Otoshi because of the risks involved.

Tani Otoshi is really a bitch move, just like doing Daki Age on a guy who puts you in guard. I mean, I would use those tech out on the streets esp Daki Age, but I would never use them in randori because of the level of hurt you could put on the uke. Another one I wouldn’t use during randori on a guy either is Kata Guruma.

I am just not going to do randori or any ne waza for a long time, very long time even when I get better. I know I probably will never do a competition, so I from now on will just learn the throws, sweeps, and ne waza techniques only. Call me a bitch, I know I am, but I would rather be a bitch able to walk rather not be able not to after doing judo. If anything, I am doing judo because it is fun to do and I want to be better able to defend myself.

32

[QUOTE=ChenPengFi;2885178]Please see the last few posts on the posture thread.[/QUOTE]

Master Cheng,

What are you referring to here? I read your thread. Are you telling me I shouldn’t ask for medical advice? I am not asking for medical advice. Are you telling me I shouldn’t be doing judo because of my genetics with regard to my bilateral hip impingement syndrome? I won’t give up doing judo, so I am having to modify techniques based on what my body can do. I am also not ever going to compete in judo, so I will be mostly giving up randori and all ne waza/rolling.

By the way, that is a very good thread you started there.

33

[QUOTE=NeilG;2885177]Sorry you got hurt. Tani otoshi is barred from randori in our club for two reasons: first, it’s an easy counter to many forward throws and so discourages newer people from even attempting a forward throw due to getting stuffed every time, and second as you found out it’s easy to get hurt.

Here’s hoping it’s not too serious.[/QUOTE]

I don’t even show that throw anymore, for the reasons you’ve outlined above. First of all, in line with the “discouraging newer people…” bit, I find that they won’t commit to their forward-going throws if they know there’s that threat. And committing fully to your forward-going throw will definitely prevent tani otoshi from working nearly as often. Great point.

Also, I’ve seen two sprained ankles, two broken feet/ankles (I perpetrated one of those), and a fractured tibia from shitty tani otoshi just in the last let’s say four years.

34

[QUOTE=blackmonk;2886157]I don’t even show that throw anymore, for the reasons you’ve outlined above. First of all, in line with the “discouraging newer people…” bit, I find that they won’t commit to their forward-going throws if they know there’s that threat. And committing fully to your forward-going throw will definitely prevent tani otoshi from working nearly as often. Great point.

Also, I’ve seen two sprained ankles, two broken feet/ankles (I perpetrated one of those), and a fractured tibia from shitty tani otoshi just in the last let’s say four years.[/QUOTE]

I sure as hell don’t teach it to anybody who I don’t think has enough control to do it correctly. That would include kids, and beginners of any other age/sort.

You comment about discouraging forward throws (or any other direction) is spot on in my experience. As well as the types of injuries incurred.

Teaching counters early on is not usually a good idea.

35

[QUOTE=BKR;2886261]I sure as hell don’t teach it to anybody who I don’t think has enough control to do it correctly. That would include kids, and beginners of any other age/sort.

You comment about discouraging forward throws (or any other direction) is spot on in my experience. As well as the types of injuries incurred.

Teaching counters early on is not usually a good idea.[/QUOTE]

It’s part of our basic takedown set. We teach it with the rear foot sliding away from the uke rather than parallel with him. I have noticed some guys teach it as basically crashing into the legs which doesn’t seem good for keeping people around to train with.
It’s one of my favorite throws.

36

[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2886264]It’s part of our basic takedown set. We teach it with the rear foot sliding away from the uke rather than parallel with him. I have noticed some guys teach it as basically crashing into the legs which doesn’t seem good for keeping people around to train with.
It’s one of my favorite throws.[/QUOTE]

And that is the correct way to teach it.

The issue is in Judo randori, it often ends up as you described (crashing). Kids especially will basically do nothing but counter throw. Crazy adult beginners/novices it’s especially dangerous.

37

[QUOTE=PittsKuntaoer;2885192][QUOTE=NeilG;2885177]Sorry you got hurt. Tani otoshi is barred from randori in our club for two reasons: first, it’s an easy counter to many forward throws and so discourages newer people from even attempting a forward throw due to getting stuffed every time, and second as you found out it’s easy to get hurt.

Here’s hoping it’s not too serious.[/QUOTE

Looking back on that randori session, now I see what happened as I have went over it in my mind. After we were doing uchikomi, I was practicing my koshi guruma, and my partner asked about Tani Otoshi. My instructor hesitantly said yes but isn’t used much that often. During randori, all this guy did was do Tani Otoshi as a counter after my attempts of Ippon or Morote Seoinage, Tai Otoshi, and Koshi guruma. This was discouraging for me as I am a beginner white belt. It just seemed like a bitch move to do over and over again. I thought the idea of practicing randori was to get good at throws we were taught in class or previous classes. We are more encouraged to use Ashi Wza more than anything other. Never once was Tani Otoshi taught by my instructor. Also seemed like this guy I did randori with was also obsessed with other Sutemi Waza moves too.

I went in to see my teacher today to let him know the injury isn’t that bad. I can put weight on in. I can walk. I just can’t flex my leg all the way in nor can I twist on the leg yet. I move around well only with a mild limp. I asked him about this guy using Tani Otoshi all the time. He said he doesn’t really teach this tech until one gets to the brown belt level. He wants us to move around a lot more and to use more of the common throws in class that he teaches instead of having to rely on Tani Otoshi. I am sure this guy I did randori with picked up this move somewhere else, as he mentioned that he has a black belt in JJJ, and a blue in Gracie JJ. You would think though that someone with this background wouldn’t attempt to do such a throw like this esp since our teacher didn’t teach this yet. My teacher said it is better to use Ura Nage instead of Tani Otoshi because of the risks involved.

Tani Otoshi is really a bitch move, just like doing Daki Age on a guy who puts you in guard. I mean, I would use those tech out on the streets esp Daki Age, but I would never use them in randori because of the level of hurt you could put on the uke. Another one I wouldn’t use during randori on a guy either is Kata Guruma.

I am just not going to do randori or any ne waza for a long time, very long time even when I get better. I know I probably will never do a competition, so I from now on will just learn the throws, sweeps, and ne waza techniques only. Call me a bitch, I know I am, but I would rather be a bitch able to walk rather not be able not to after doing judo. If anything, I am doing judo because it is fun to do and I want to be better able to defend myself.[/QUOTE]

It’s better to splat someone with a ura nage than a Tani toshi? You guys have nice mats.
Tani toshi from a body lock is one of the first takedowns you learn in GJJ. He may have picked it up there. It works on all sizes so it is part of the Gracie basics.

38

[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2886266][QUOTE=PittsKuntaoer;2885192]

It’s better to splat someone with a ura nage than a Tani toshi? You guys have nice mats.
Tani toshi from a body lock is one of the first takedowns you learn in GJJ. He may have picked it up there. It works on all sizes so it is part of the Gracie basics.[/QUOTE]

Right, when correctly executed.

This is the correct (for Judo) order for teaching:

1.) Dodging
2.) Blocking
3.) Countering

Emphasizing agility and reaction over heavy blocking and countering pays dividends in the long run (for Judo). You are not teaching Judo specifically, but a curriculum related specifically to GJJ and it’s goals/aims.

Plus, if you have shitty mats, it’s even more difficult.

So we come at the issue from different perspectives, which, as you’ve noted before, is based on evolution of the sport/art due to rule sets (mostly).

edit
It’s better to maintain posture and degrees of freedom in movement/mobility than to rely on counters.

39

[QUOTE=BKR;2886267][QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2886266]

Right, when correctly executed.

This is the correct (for Judo) order for teaching:

1.) Dodging
2.) Blocking
3.) Countering

Emphasizing agility and reaction over heavy blocking and countering pays dividends in the long run (for Judo). You are not teaching Judo specifically, but a curriculum related specifically to GJJ and it’s goals/aims.

Plus, if you have shitty mats, it’s even more difficult.

So we come at the issue from different perspectives, which, as you’ve noted before, is based on evolution of the sport/art due to rule sets (mostly).

edit
It’s better to maintain posture and degrees of freedom in movement/mobility than to rely on counters.[/QUOTE]

That’s food for thought.

40

[QUOTE=BKR;2886267][QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2886266]

Right, when correctly executed.

This is the correct (for Judo) order for teaching:

1.) Dodging
2.) Blocking
3.) Countering

Emphasizing agility and reaction over heavy blocking and countering pays dividends in the long run (for Judo). You are not teaching Judo specifically, but a curriculum related specifically to GJJ and it’s goals/aims.

Plus, if you have shitty mats, it’s even more difficult.

So we come at the issue from different perspectives, which, as you’ve noted before, is based on evolution of the sport/art due to rule sets (mostly).

edit
It’s better to maintain posture and degrees of freedom in movement/mobility than to rely on counters.[/QUOTE]

What aspects are a Jump around and a turn out?