Data driven approach to COVID19 vaccination for kids, and adults

PDA · December 11, 2024, 11:10am

This report has several damning accusations/assertions however somethings I take mild exception too.

For example social distancing and masks, I have seen the criticisms of their effectiveness in preventing infection however it was established quite early on in the pandemic that the amount of viral load one was exposed to correlated quite significantly to how ill a person became which was why medical staff working in intensive care units at least in the UK were hit quite hard.
So although masks have been shown not to prevent infection I think one could safely assume that they would at least reduce the viral load somebody was exposed to and the same could be said for social distancing so I dont think this should be dismissed as it could mean the difference between having a bad cold or going to the ICU.

So in emergency situations do we not expect those in charge of public health to make educated decisions?

But yeah I am going to read through in more detail when i have more time as it does seam that many actions taken by certain people and organizations were questionable, be that due to operating under pressure, incompetance or corruption .

W.Rabbit · December 11, 2024, 3:05pm

PPE have always mitigated infections. But we can’t ask Wuhan Doctor #1.

He saved too many people to survive, and then the PRC covered it up, along with a whole sequence of other Chinese people.

Remember Xu Xiadong? He was caught up in this too.

Keeping it simple, yeah masks work to prevent you from infecting others from all sorts of shit. But China tried to silence the whole thing, then up to 30M people died because China is a police state, and Americans and Britains and most of Europeans are fucking stupid and get their medical information from Youtube, and not dead doctors and really smart kung fu MMA guys like Xiaodong.

images

If I hadn’t already posted thousand of posts about this from 2021-2023, I might be more animated.

Statistically, COVID killed 1 in 10, about the same as it’s predecessor, SARS, but that was not a pandemic. And interventions only work when people use them, but we live in an age when people don’t believe in basic science, and don’t trust anything.

PDA · December 23, 2024, 4:20pm

Not all good news for MRNA

# FDA docs reveal pitfalls of Moderna’s paediatric RSV vaccine

Apparently it appeared to be causing more disease than it was preventing .

Children under 2 in clinical trials ? That’s quite the leap for any parent .

W.Rabbit · December 24, 2024, 5:51am

Crap source. Or more accurately, crap article. Author has been in the workforce for less than 3 years.

Nothing to do with mRNA, which is a proven safe medical intervention.

This article is clickbait, you can tell by the fake image of the kid scared of getting a vaccine.

Millions of children under 2 never developed polio because of “trials”.

Over 100,000 kids under 5 die from RSV globally every year.

vaccine_infant

So, two kids died in the 60’s, and 5 kids in this study actually got RSV even though they got “the jab”.

Any article using the term “jab” is suspect. That’s not a scientific term.

As an FDA advisory committee (adcom) gears up for a discussion later this week on the safety of testing respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) vaccines in children, briefing documents released ahead of the meeting have shed more light on why Moderna discontinued paediatric development of an mRNA candidate in September.

Research on paediatric RSV vaccines has been limited since an experimental formalin-inactivated RSV jab led to two toddler deaths in the 1960s, which were linked to vaccine-associated enhanced respiratory disease (VAERD) — a rare phenomenon characterised by severe, atypical disease symptoms in an individual who becomes infected after being previously vaccinated against that specific pathogen.

Since then, the FDA has instituted safeguards to limit the risks when testing RSV vaccines in children, and in 2023 allowed Moderna to move forward with the Phase I mRNA-1365-P101 trial.

Severe symptoms

The study enrolled children between the ages of 5 months and two years to receive either mRNA-1345, an RSV-specific jab, or mRNA-1365, an RSV/human metapneumovirus (hMPV) combination vaccine, or placebo.

While mRNA-1365-P101 is still listed as active on ClinicalTrials.gov, Moderna disclosed during its R&D day earlier this year that it has halted development of mRNA-1345 for infants under two, citing “emerging clinical data.”

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The FDA’s briefing documents revealed that the trial was paused in July after two vaccinated infants tested positive for RSV and contracted a severe lower respiratory tract infection (LRTI).

According to the report, Moderna identified potential RSV VAERD in infants 5 months to <8 months of age in association with the two experimental jabs “as an emerging safety signal with significant impact on the benefit-risk profile,” which was then elevated to an “important potential risk” on August 12.

In total, two children who received mRNA-1345 and three who received mRNA-1365 progressed to severe or very severe LRTI in the study’s Part B, versus one infant who received placebo. One participant in Part A who received mRNA-1365 also experienced a severe infection, while none in the placebo group had such symptoms.

Safety conversation

While the adcom won’t specifically discuss Moderna’s experimental RSV vaccines, participants will be asked whether the results of mRNA-1365-P101 indicate “a potential safety concern more broadly applicable to the evaluation of RSV vaccine candidates in infants and toddlers.” The panel will also cover whether the risks of paediatric studies apply equally to different modalities, including mRNA, live-attenuated, viral-vectored and protein vaccines.

The committee members will also be asked whether any additional non-clinical and clinical safeguards or precautions should be instituted when evaluating RSV vaccine candidates in infants and toddlers.

W.Rabbit · December 25, 2024, 12:56am

ZxC32461346 · December 27, 2024, 7:53am

Yeah, if i had kids i can’t imagine i’d enroll them for any trial, unless the child had something terminal and the trial could save their lives.

PDA · December 27, 2024, 12:28pm

Me too .

It’s like many scientific or ethical debates that have become so political and ideological people are making decision based on what “side” they are on rather than looking at things objectively.

Be it vaccines , puberty blockers , war or even space exploration many people have lost the ability to set aside their “team”agenda and become quite irrational and emotional when making extremely important decisions .

W.Rabbit · December 28, 2024, 6:22pm

Which is exactly the case globally with RSV and why this exists.

100,000 kids a year die from RSV. If you actually read the study PDA posted, what happened was a few got sick with it anyway. Not from the vaccine though (you can’t catch a disease from any vaccine)

There’s a reason kids are given their first MMR at 12 months, and IPV at 2 months.

“Experimental” is a buzzword. All vaccinations are experimental. In the case of mRNA vaccines, they work and are effective, and as with all medical interventions, nothing is 100% certain.

ZxC32461346 · December 29, 2024, 7:43am

I don’t have a problem with vaccines and i think it’s great that they continue to research them. I don’t think all vaccines are experimental, i think once you’ve had them around for a few years you’ve got solid data on weather they work or not and what the side effects are. With traditional vaccines like deactivated viruses etc. we have a solid understanding of where issues might occur.

My comment was about enrolling a 2 year old into something where they have no real data and are going through a testing phase, that has a much higher risk profile. It’s a double edged sword though, because we need people to try a treatment for us to develop new treatments, i just don’t know if i’d want my child (if i had one) to participate in a trial.

mRNA is a cool technology, but i see it as more risky than the others based on how they work. I mean it’s basically server side script injection. So personally i just want more long term data. I don’t believe we understand genetic alterations at that level as well as we think we do.

My problem with the pandemic is not that i’m against vaccines, it’s that i think they rolled the dice. I think there were major short comings in the process and the approach to rollout was extremely high risk, in some areas they took risks they didn’t need to at the time. So far it looks like it might not be that bad, but we still need the time to be sure. We have no real long term data on mRNA, there is a reason it’s been around since the 80’s and this is the first mass rollout.

W.Rabbit · December 29, 2024, 7:46am

No. Everything you said here is wrong, starting with “technology”. Vaccines are not “technology”. Pasteur was not a technologist. He was a chemist and microbiologist who developed “experimental” interventions for cholera, Anthrax, rabies, and RFK Jr.'s target, raw milk, which has killed uncountable children.

Why do you think mRNA vaccines are “more risky”, and please cite medical literature.

“More risky” than what “others”?

Keep in mind this thread is about the COVID vaccines, which saves millions of lives with practically no harm, unless you subscribe to fake anti vax bullshit.

Ugh, hard to believe we are actually going to debate this again. By that I mean vaccine safety. Of all the serious issues in this world that’s your hill.

ZxC32461346 · December 29, 2024, 8:04am

Well for one the complexity of cellular manipulation. Putting a deactivated virus in my body is very different from writing genetic code that alters how your cells work. Don’t you think that is more risky just as a departure point? It’s more risky because of the complexity involved. Are you saying there is no difference in complexity? If there is a difference in complexity, does that not come at greater risk?

I think we are arguing semantics here.

How about i say practical application derived from scientific research.

Haha, i’ve been slow to respond in this thread because i prefer to have conversations with people who enjoy a given topic. I’d dig to chat to pda about it, but the blast radius is going to be too wide and it’s going to be a lot of work to dig up paper after paper.

No gods no masters, i like to question things and think critically. Everything, even my own sense of morality. It irritates people from time to time i’m aware of that.

No not really, i’d have to think of what my hill would be, free speech is up there for me, but i’m becoming more nihilistic with time, so part of me thinks the world is going to hell and i hope it happens after i’m gone. There is this idea that we haven’t seen intelligent life in the universe because there are filter events where life can’t progress beyond a certain state of technology before destroying itself, i think that’s going to be us, but that’s a different topic, and technology in that sense wasn’t directed at vaccines … and life in the universe i’m basing on probability given an expanding universe not that i’m an alien guy, i’m not really into the whole aliens UFO thing. So many disclaimers.

W.Rabbit · December 29, 2024, 8:18am

Ok. Have at it.

There are practically no risk from large scale mRNA vaccines, just going by COVID numbers, and the RSV article he posted is statistically irrelevant (a couple of kids under 2 who got an RSV vaccine still caught it).

Current RSV vaccines are not mRNA based but have pretty much the same effective outcome.

But, mRNA RSV vaccines could help save 100,000 toddlers a year. And 1,000,000 people over the age of 75.

So again, why are we scared of mRNA vaccines, which basically helped prevent upwards of 100M COVID deaths?

I’ll tell you why, it has to do with really dumb people, many celebrities, convincing the public that Louis Pasteur was wrong, vaccines cause autism, fluoride is turning kids gay…

Etc etc etc.

To think that vaccines are dangerous. Wow, that’s something Putin out in the drinking water isn’t it.

PDA · January 5, 2025, 5:12pm

Current UK Government recommendations for covid vaccination :

> ## Advice on vaccination in spring 2025
**> **
> Using the bespoke, non-standard cost-effectiveness assessment developed by DHSC, JCVI advises that the following groups should be offered COVID-19 vaccination in spring 2025:
**> **
> * adults aged 75 years and over
> * residents in a care home for older adults
> * individuals aged 6 months and over who are immunosuppressed (as defined in the ‘immunosuppression’ sections of tables 3 or 4 in the

Its interesting going back and watching some of the doom mongers like Geert Vanden Bossche who to be far may still be right I guess if some super variant pops up and kills everyone but the data is certainly moving in the opposite direction.

From personal experiance I had a key hole surgery and one of the wounds didnt heal so I got the anitbotics from the doctors but thought id give it a week or so just eating super clean to see if I could fight it off rather than fry all my gut flora which is last resort.

It did take a few weeks longer to heal but I did fight it off without taking the antibotics so given that I am 3 jabs deep and over weight it doesn’t seamed to have harmed my immune system generally which was quite a strong prediction in his and many other anti MRNA vaccine opponents.

The one thing I did agree with him on was the need or lack there of to vaccinate children but for the simple reason that the numbers just didnt add up from the very beginning when looking at the risk profiles for both the vaccine and the virus.

Interestingly enough he worked for the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation so thats quite the conundrum for the conspiracy minded among us.

PDA · January 9, 2025, 1:32pm

This is an interesting ongoing law suit involving Dr Fauci.

CASE
SUMMARY
The Biden administration issued a September 2021 Executive Order proclaiming it was “necessary to require COVID-19 vaccination for all Federal employees” to halt the spread of the disease. NCLA argues the Federal Vaccine Mandate undermined James Rodden and other Plaintiffs’ constitutional rights to bodily integrity and to decline medical treatment, and their statutory right to withhold informed consent. It conditioned their employment on willingness to take a vaccine that was medically unnecessary for them given their existing antibody levels. Their proof of antibodies demonstrated sufficient natural immunity to protect their co-workers as well or better than approved COVID-19 vaccines. These Plaintiffs all possessed medically confirmed naturally acquired immunity.

The federal government did not consider employees fully vaccinated until two weeks after receiving a full one-or-two-shot series. Those who did not comply with the November 8, 2021 vaccination deadline faced potential disciplinary action, including employment termination. Several experts attested that it was medically unnecessary for these individuals to undergo vaccination at that point. Though the COVID-19 vaccines appear relatively safe at a population level, they still carry a risk of side effects, including severe adverse reactions and even death in rare cases.

Given naturally acquired immunity, the Federal Defendants could not establish a compelling governmental interest in overriding Plaintiffs’ constitutional rights and personal autonomy by making their continued employment contingent upon COVID-19 vaccination. The Federal Vaccine Mandate also violated federal law allowing the government to authorize drugs that have not yet received full FDA approval and make them available on a strictly voluntary basis. That statute notes patients’ right to informed consent and to refuse administration of an EUA drug. The Safer Federal Workforce Task Force, which included Dr. Anthony Fauci, turned a permissive procedure to get possibly helpful drugs on the market in a crisis into an unlawful mandate.

Im not entirely sure why Fauci is getting sued as he may have given dodgy advice but it was Biden who acted on it.

W.Rabbit · January 9, 2025, 2:26pm

Garbage. Another RFK Jr. Fan, too.

This guy is a contrarian twerp.

“Max vaxx is always madness”? Fuck that, tell that to all the kids who died from anthrax, smallpox, and polio.

GTFO.

W.Rabbit · January 9, 2025, 2:28pm

He’s being sued because people are morons. You know, your kind.

Fauci’s never given any “dodgy advice”. He also advised how many Presidents? What’s next, you going to smear Dr Fauci with AIDS-era shit?

You are really posting shit out of your ass, which was barely there with MMA, but now you are attempting to feed the mass murder machine that is vaccine fear?

Once again, you need to stop posting dodgy YouTube videos and post actual science, or GTFO.

W.Rabbit · January 9, 2025, 2:32pm

Christ, shut the fuck up asshole. Now you’re using LAWYERS as scientific evidence?

You clearly have no respect for the millions dead from more diseases than I have time to go into.

Pick a new battle. Vaccine science is too far over your head.

As Bullshido’s resident expert on forensic legal science, I’m here to inform you to stick to fight shit. Or else.

My next Dungeons and Dragons game with Phrost, I’m going to tell him you are peddling RFK Jr crap and that’ll be that, and you can go back to smoking glass.

ZxC32461346 · January 10, 2025, 1:42pm

I’m not scared. There is the long term potential that mRNA tech solves all kinds of problems, from vaccination to re-growing tissue in organs. I have concerns specific to this vaccine in terms of testing and roll-out.

This was the article that really got me thinking.

I’m not really one for public / popular opinion, pro or anti vaccine, evaluate all points of view and make up your own mind, right?

There is the generalization. I’m cautious with mRNA once again specific to this instance. I’m very happy smallpox and polio aren’t a concern anymore. mRNA is a tricky thing to get right, they were having issues for years getting it into cells as well as unpredictable responses from the body. I’m not sure how they overcame all these issues, as far as i know that is proprietary.

There were whistleblowers during the trials which was raised by the BMJ in a link i already posted. I also think how things where changing is of concern. Fairly early on in the rollout re-infections started with prevention levels dropping after 3 months. Then they started with the boosters where Israel was the first to rollout with very limited data on booster shots, which they didn’t anticipate. Then it came out that the mRNA and spike protein last much longer in the body than anticipated. It didn’t feel like a well tested product.

I’ll wait to have longer term studies, then i’ll be happy to embrace a new form of medical treatment.

I’ve really tried not to write an essay here. It’s a complicated topic. I have problems with how things are funded, how they were vetted, aspects of the pandemic response. It’s not easy to have a complex discussion like that on a forum. If i see something interesting i’ll link it and we can keep it to specific aspects.

EDIT: I really didn’t link the mandated vaccinations after it was confirmed herd immunity wasn’t a thing and that the press just kept going on about herd immunity. I felt the pressure in a work / social context because i didn’t get the vaccine, that left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth tbh.

W.Rabbit · January 10, 2025, 2:12pm

Bert Hubert is a fat geek with zero qualifications in virology.

"The BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine has this digital code at its heart. It is 4284 characters long, so it would fit in a bunch of tweets. "

Fuck him. I knew better than to even start reading that, but stopped there.

Great, it got you thinking wrong. People aren’t digital. That whole article is a DNS coder spewing nonsense about a subject he doesn’t understand. Which is something common to the Linux crowds.

My usual prescription for this is “touch grass”.

This “don’t trust doctors” shit has to cease.

W.Rabbit · January 10, 2025, 2:23pm

It can be a thing. But not in a pandemic, because by definition pandemics occur when herd immunity fails.

Without the mRNA vaccines, a billion people might be dead. The death toll from COVID was 8-40M WITH vaccines. Some people would say “that’s barely 0.5 billion!”, mostly Linux coders.

And here’s the best part: this will happen again, and fewer than one hundred years between.

And now because of this political bullshit and ongoing YouTube war against science in general, half the world no longer trusts medical science.

Hell, RFK Jr. Wants to get rid of polio vaccines and fluoridated water, because he listens to crap like @PDA posted and has no critical reasoning skills left in his worm-addled brain.

Louis Pasteur had to convince parents of sick kids that a little needle would save them. Here we are trying to do it all over again in 2025.