I could still really go for those guard opening pressure point locations…
Aside from that I don’t think we’ve seen any arguments that demonstrate that Catch has any unique and valuable insights to offer the modern grappling community. The entire position hierarchy of BJJ exists as it does because as you go higher up the chain you have more control over your opponent. So the idea of “Control before Submission” vs “Position before submission” is just misdirection.
Haveing superior position gives you superior control, just because you CAN control someone enough to land a sub from a bad position doesn’t make it a good idea. It also doesn’t mean that you never will.
If you want to attack the idea of working off of your back in guard, well most people in BJJ will agree that it is always preferable to be on top, hence the positional hierarchy. But since you can CONTROL someone with your guard and land the sub, it’s perfectly reasonable to do so if you have a good guard game.
As you can see, BJJ and Catch concepts overlap in many ways. Catch needs to be modernized and you need to realize that BJJ now isn’t the same as it was in 1993. The BJJ game expands more and more every year.
You gotta be kidding.
Now I’m going to be more serious than ever in asking him to answer my questions. If he’s seriously teaching, it behooves him to answer them regardless of his fighting and teaching abilities.
The problem is that he has no idea what he’s talking about.
In this thread and others, he has repeatedly claimed that BJJ employs strategies and techniques which it doesn’t. When asked-- several times-- why he believes Catch to be different than BJJ (other than the rules of contests) he talks about things which are not differences-- concepts of control and “riding heavy,” predominantly. When it is pointed out that these are not differences, he responds solely by slinging insults and asserting that there is a difference between Catch and BJJ strategy, but he refuses to elucidate. Additionally, he has repeatedly claimed that other people were “trolling” simply because they were posting challenges to his claims.
If believing what he’s writing is all that’s required to get a pass back out of Trollshido, then there’s a vast amount of threads in there that don’t belong.
–Joe
Will continue to ignore the mudslingers and stay on topic. So I will not be answering questions about where, when, how long, against who, etc…as these questions are meant to bypass the points that are being raised and straight into the “if-your-dick-is-not-as-big-as-mine-than-shut up” nonsense.
Stick to the issues instead of going after the messenger.
There’s lots about catch that’s been mentioned so far on this thread (and BJJ)…and possibly much more to come. Let’s discuss/debate those things.
Otherwise you’ll find that you’ll be talking to yourself…
Now as to the differences between the Catch and BJJ strategies…it’s already been stated both here and on other threads what those differences are.
If you’re still not clear about it - then go back and read the first post on this thread - and take it from there.
Fine, let’s stick to the femeral artery/nerve cluster issue, the questions of which are laid out here: No BS Martial Arts - View Single Post - Why Catch Wrestling is the grappling future in mma
That issue has not been clarified yet. So let’s stick to it and I won’t go after the messenger the same way you did with your ‘Gracie semen’ remark.
Did you say nerve cluster?
As in, the nerves that cluster in the front part of the upper leg and slightly toward the inside of the leg? Beginnig approximately 3-4 inches away from the knee cap?
That cluster of nerves?
Which if hit with, say 3-4 elbow strikes, might easily result in someone being jolted into opening his legs if they were crossed?
If you are…then what does any of that have to do with what’s being discussed on this thread?
I’m discussing CATCH WRESTLING here - not what might be used within a wing chun/boxing/ground and pound framework when caught in someone’s guard.
You think it can’t be done - I think it can.
BUT WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THIS THREAD?
Alrighty, then, getting back on topic–
You’ve asserted that the two main differences between Catch and BJJ are that Catch prefers to “ride heavy” while BJJ doesn’t, and that Catch prefers a doctrine of control over a doctrine of position.
You’ve already been corrected, several times, on your misunderstanding regarding “riding heavy” in BJJ. Weight distribution and efficient leverage are core concepts of the art, and always have been. In support of this position, I posted this video in the Tony Cecchine thread, of Rickson in a Sambo tournament before the explosion in popularity for BJJ:
YouTube - Rickson Gracie in Sambo tournament
Rickson is very clearly “riding heavy” each and every time he’s in a top position. Combine that with the fact that the major Top Positions are all very specifically designed for holding one’s opponent to the mat, and restricting his freedom of movement as greatly as possible, it’s a very difficult argument, indeed, to try and purport that BJJ doesn’t value riding heavy.
Secondly, you keep attempting to manifest some sort of false boundary between the ideas of Position and Control. The fact of the matter is that Position is Control. The idea of “position before submission,” in BJJ, does not equate to passing up viable opportunities to submit the opponent in favor of moving to the next position on some imaginary flowchart. If a BJJ player has enough control over his opponent from Side Control to apply, say, an Americana Keylock, he should do so. He is not obligated to switch to Reverse-Scarf in order to switch to Mount in order to get the submission.
The “Position before Submission” mantra simply means that the BJJ player needs to ensure he has control over his opponent prior to distracting himself with attempts at submissions. Going back to our Side Control example, above, if the opponent has managed to work some space between himself and the man on top, the attacker needs to first re-establish his Position (and therefore his Control) over the opponent before attempting the Submission-- since his lack of control could forfeit both the Position and the Submission.
So, once again, given that the differences you’ve purported between Catch and BJJ are not actually differences, what else is there that differentiates the two arts?
–Joe
Absolutely nothing, but since you refuse to answer it in the other thread, I’ll follow it here. You want me to stop asking it here, then go to the other thread and answer it there.
Firstly it speaks to your ignorance of the subject being discussed. If you believe that wonking someone a few times in the leg with your elbow will open their guard then you’ve clearly never been in the guard of even a moderately skilly beginner. Guys 40lbs heavier than I am who are much stronger tham I am can’t open my guard with elbow strikes and I’ve only been doing this a year and a half. More importantly they don’t get the chance to throw elbow strikes at my legs unless I just lounge back and let them swing. So the method you are espousing simple and plainly doesn’t work.
I’m sure if you were able to just sit in someones guard and smash their legs with elbows for 10-15 minutes then by round 4 their guard would be a lot weaker. But if you’ve got time to do that shit then you don’t need to worry about their guard game.
Secondly it speaks to your ignorance of the subject of human anatomy which is tightly linked to any serious discussion of martial arts. The place that you think you are referring to is actually the Iliotibial Band which is a tendon right abouve the knee which runs along the bottom of the quadricep. Digging in there with something point hurts, but has nothing like the effect you believe it does. There is no “nerve cluster” there. The femoral nerve is at the top of the leg where it meets the pelvis. The sciatic nerve is the same. They continue to run down the OUTSIDE not inside of the leg.
So you are confidently making an assertion that is flat out incorrect in every possible way. And yet you want us to take your word that you are an authority on both BJJ and Catch Wrestling without really offering any proof that you have any idea what you are talking about when substantial numbers of your statemets indicate a complete ignorance of BJJ. Perhaps you should begin re-establishing your credentials if you wish to be taken seriously in this conversation?
Apparently retardation is sufficient to get out of trollshido.
I just don’t think you guys get it.
I’ll discuss what I want to discuss - you won’t be dictating to me about that.
So TEM, if you (and anyone else) continues with the nerve cluster/artery or any other form of “gotcha” routine here on this (or any other) thread - I will ignore you.
It’s all about CONTROL - and I’m not going to cede any to you.
Your discussions consist of asinine points that are typically unsupported or trivial and obvious.
You’re irrelevant, as are your opinions on grappling.
Then please reference my previous post, #41 and KFJ’s post, #48.
Both of us mention the overlaps in the Catch and BJJ philosophies and describe how BJJ uses the positional hierarchy as a means to control the opponent, but can and does advocate submissions from any position which offers sufficient control to do so. This is what you claim Catch advocates.
So what is the problem? Catch and BJJ have the same goals, espouse similar philosphies, and share many techniques. The difference appears to be that Catch is still about 30 years behind in terms of development because it split out into Pro Wrestling and stopped advancing as a combat effective art. There may be many valuable things in Catch, but most or even all of them have been adopted into BJJ in the last 15 years as the sport exploded.
There is little or nothing left in Catch of value that does not also appear in BJJ now. If you could point out a few, ideally with a video of the technique in action, that would be awesome. But if you entire argument rides on a philosophical difference then you’re just being disingenuous.
I do intend to respond, Kintanon…probably either late tonight or tomorrow.
Did somone tell Royce Gracie that?
How much cash can a catch as catch can catch if a catch as catch can could catch cash? Thats the real question here.
Here’s video proof that BJJ beats catch wrestling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-jwejqIDGo
Refute that!
Excellent. I wanted to make this point to Mr. Parlati myself. Thank you Joe.
It also should be stated that there is no single side control position that applies to every situation. I know that’s obvious, but grappling (like most physical activities) is fluid. Sometimes Mr. Parlati’s preferred position is most applicable (knee by hip drawn up, leg by head extended), sometimes both knees up is best and sometimes both legs extended works better. Other times you need to sit through to kuzure kesa to stop the bottom person’s escape attempts.
In respect to my BJJ, I use all of the above and more to maintain control over my opponent. I don’t feel any one position is superior over another. They’re simply applicable in different situations.
What say you Mr. Parlati?
Not trying to be a dick but how much experience do you have rolling with Catch wrestlers?
Teacher huh?
Do you, VP, or any of your students compete in NAGA or GQ when they come to NJ?