What we have here is a failure to communicate

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Trollshido
1

Feel free to correct me anybody, but the heel hook doesn’t seem like a great idea for SD.

Sure, you can win a match fast. Combination of pain and awareness, the pro grapplers are conditioned to know when to tap if they want to maintain their career. The current record in MMA is 11 seconds.

But “little guys submitting big guys in a gym” with heel hooks and no striking, and surviving an assault are not even close to the same thing. Even in pro MMA, wins by heel hook are rare when so many other options are allowed in the rule set, like caving the face in of somebody trying to heel hook you.

You could also snap that heel right the fuck off and you might still have an aggressor. Especially if any number of street drugs are involved.

I think any solid blood choke is a good idea, because they work fast. Jointlocks are going to be a lot more variable…you simply don’t know if even breaking someone’s bone is going to make them retreat (great in theory, but all wounded animals can be dangerous).

Throwing is a solid finishing move in “the street”. Countless videos out there of aggressors getting dumped and giving up, one throw. Even if it doesn’t that’s a great spot to the best SD technique of all, as the good doctor pointed out. GTFO.

[QUOTE=jfingaz123;3062078]I consider myself to be a pretty well rounded grappler. I’ve always tried to go with the flow and attack according to what openings my opponents leave me, not favoring any particular submissions over the others. However I’d like to begin going deeper into the art and really specializing on the setting up and finishing of 1-2 submissions. You know the whole Bruce Lee thing “I fear not the man who knows 1,000 kicks, but the man who has practiced 1 kick 1,000 times” or something like that.

Anyway I’ve decided that I’d like to specialize in 1-2 submission types that I can teach my daughter when she’s of age (now only 2 years old) for her self defense if she is ever attacked by a man (usually sexual). Obviously I don’t want to start a “woman vs man” grappling thread. However I would like opinions on what are the 1 or 2 most practical finishing moves for women in a self defense scenario from with a BJJ mindset.

My personal thoughts are that the triangle and the heel hook are top contenders. I’ve seen some of the smallest guys submit some of the biggest & toughest guys in the gym with heels hooks. And obviously the triangle choke is extremely strong and effective.

So what are some of your opinions?[/QUOTE]

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Match enders, sure. But life or death situations? I’m not sold.

Is there any data out there suggesting heel hooks have ever been used in self defense to submit an attacker?

I only ask because there is plenty of evidence for other techniques like chokes, throws, even just guard long enough for help to arrive or exhaust an attacker enough to escape.

Do you know of any cases where the heel hook stopped an assault, rape, etc?

[QUOTE=goodlun;3062118]Heel Hooks from 50/50 have worked well in striking situations.
Heel Hooks are fast and effective and are total fight enders.

When we start talking about Male on Female violence it largely starts with Man Handling vs striking, so the ability to sit back into a heel hook isn’t bad per say.
Especially if its completely unsuspected and the Male doesn’t know that they are in a “fight” yet and that they think they are just going to put their hands all over someone.

However I want to state, Like all tricks, Leg Locks have to be a part of a complete tool bag, you have to have options other than that, you have to be able to transition to the back from 50/50 you have to be able to get out of the position.
You have to have a whole system around it and not just welp here is how you do an inside heel hook.[/QUOTE]

3

[QUOTE=BKR;3062140]You guys are talking about heel hooks, WRabbit, you are the master of the derail, I salute you.
[/QUOTE]

It’s not a derail, the OP specifically brought it up.

I’m just questioning their value in stopping a physical assault, because honestly I’ve never heard of it happening in any case I can recall where wrestling was involved. Chokes, locks, throws, there is plenty of evidence for.

So, should heel hook really be one of OP’s “1-2” specialized subs? That was their main question. The lack of evidence not to mention Gonzo’s point about legal trouble seems to suggest otherwise. Wouldn’t the time specializing be better spent on other things?

4

[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;3062174]Heel hooks were a staple of Sport and Combat Sambo before FIAS banned them. There are many variations that can be done from a standing position with a single leg.

So if we take what is the highest percentage take down across every grappling system that allows them as well as MMA. Couple it with a submission that will pretty much tear every ligament in the knee if truly cranked, and has been shown to be effective even against high level grapplers.

Now you want to ask if that will work in a self defense situation?

Well in my opinion it shouldn’t be the only tool in your tool box, but it should be one of them, and knowing how to do it from the standing position is a good idea as well.[/QUOTE]

I was really curious about this, given ranked people have differences in opinion on it (there is a whole reddit on this subtopic).

This video ties Gonzo’s, Beaker’s, and your point together nicely, and Eli also brings up a good sport/vs street SD scenario: you on the ground with somebody standing over you, possibly with a weapon. The heel hook in that situation, according to Eli Knight, might be your go-to, assuming it’s a 1:1 encounter. Other times it might never be.

//youtu.be/yr0-CKcsopA

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Posts above removed from: https://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=129305

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I remember at a throwdown many years ago, Omega was teaching some leglocks at his gym. I was pretty new to leglocks. I remember noticing how different it was when the skilled leg lockers would do the techniques. Way less movement and muscle necessary when everything is set properly and force applied correctly. Truly a good example of how martial technique can be refined and made more efficient by practice. A beginner can strain and lean into a leglocks and have it barely hurt; an expert can appear to barely move and it hurts immediately. So, when the self defense crowd talks about how leglocks don’t work in a real fight, I wonder if they’ve really learned them from a good teacher, or if they tried something poorly from YouTube and decided they don’t work very well. I believe the ability to cripple a leg is a pretty big deal, even if the opponent is on “street drugs”.

7

Chokes are the best option for that. It doesn’t matter if your pain receptors are turned off if you become unconscious.

8

I bounced at a local topless club for a while many years ago. Drunks are easy, but people who become hostile and have enough cocaine, methamphetamine or PCP require the ability to snap on a choke quickly and decisively in my experience.

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[QUOTE=jnp;3062344]I bounced at a local topless club for a while many years ago. Drunks are easy, but people who become hostile and have enough cocaine, methamphetamine or PCP require the ability to snap on a choke quickly and decisively in my experience.[/QUOTE]
See, you are “white peopling” it, right there.

You don’t handle snakes,

you don’t wrestle alligators,

you don’t spend the night in the haunted house,

You don’t let your buddy with the sword cut an apple on your head,

and you don’t fight the guy on PCP for bouncer wages.

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[QUOTE=Dr. Gonzo;3062348]See, you are “white peopling” it, right there.

You don’t handle snakes,

you don’t wrestle alligators,

you don’t spend the night in the haunted house,

You don’t let your buddy with the sword cut an apple on your head,

and you don’t fight the guy on PCP for bouncer wages.[/QUOTE]
Well, I was in my 30’s. I was also a dumb blue belt.

I thought I was invincible until I had a gun pointed at me.

Honestly though, after Desert Storm in my early 20’s, that type of thing didn’t scare me as much as it should have. I’d already been through the crucible. Civilian shit didn’t affect me as much after that.

11

[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;3062175]It’s not a derail, the OP specifically brought it up.

I’m just questioning their value in stopping a physical assault, because honestly I’ve never heard of it happening in any case I can recall where wrestling was involved. Chokes, locks, throws, there is plenty of evidence for.

So, should heel hook really be one of OP’s “1-2” specialized subs? That was their main question. The lack of evidence not to mention Gonzo’s point about legal trouble seems to suggest otherwise. Wouldn’t the time specializing be better spent on other things?[/QUOTE]

I guess detailing a troll op is okey dokey.

HM or one of yours?

12

[QUOTE=Dr. Gonzo;3062348]See, you are “white peopling” it, right there.

You don’t handle snakes,

you don’t wrestle alligators,

you don’t spend the night in the haunted house,

You don’t let your buddy with the sword cut an apple on your head,

and you don’t fight the guy on PCP for bouncer wages.[/QUOTE]

You left out Lone Ranger, pee into the wind, and Jim…

13

Wait so did we learn that its 100% okay for me to pull guard into ashi garami in a street fight?

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[QUOTE=goodlun;3062513]Wait so did we learn that its 100% okay for me to pull guard into ashi garami in a street fight?[/QUOTE]

Maybe a ryan hall-esque imanari roll to inside sankaku heel hook.

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[QUOTE=cualltaigh;3062514]Maybe a ryan hall-esque imanari roll to inside sankaku heel hook.[/QUOTE]
Man that sounds terrible on concrete…

If I just sit to guard, I don’t have to worry about anything other than maybe bruising my tail bone.
So much better than standing there and getting in a striking fight, and so much better than worrying about maybe being thrown on my head.
You know what sort of head trauma you can get from being punched in the head or having it land on concrete!???

16

[QUOTE=goodlun;3062510]Part of that is parroting shit said by very traditionalist BJJ guys as well.
Fuck, I am not sure if he was trolling or not but Vinny Magalhaes “Leglocks don’t work”
So…[/QUOTE]

I think he was half trolling.

Since the rise of the DDS, every white and blue belt had passed, or passes through some phase where they abandon position to chase a straight ankle lock. The number of times I’ve seen guys lose point based matches in IBJJF or JJIF tournaments for that kind of stupid never ceases to astound.

So yeah I think the trend of chasing leg locks when people are still have major holes in their basic game, is what Vinny is responding to. Clearly the success of the DDS shows that they “work”. It just doesnt make it a good idea to focus on that over and above establishing control positions.

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[QUOTE=goodlun;3062510]Part of that is parroting shit said by very traditionalist BJJ guys as well.
Fuck, I am not sure if he was trolling or not but Vinny Magalhaes “Leglocks don’t work”
So…[/QUOTE]

He was all the way trolling. He’s world class at heel hooks. He has subbed Buchecha and many more with a heel hook. That’s why Vinny beat Gordon Ryan. He knows them inside and out.

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[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;3062532]He was all the way trolling. He’s world class at heel hooks. He has subbed Buchecha and many more with a heel hook. That’s why Vinny beat Gordon Ryan. He knows them inside and out.[/QUOTE]

I figured he was trolling but it’s hard to tell sometimes.

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[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;3062532]He was all the way trolling. He’s world class at heel hooks. He has subbed Buchecha and many more with a heel hook. That’s why Vinny beat Gordon Ryan. He knows them inside and out.[/QUOTE]
Racye, did you get the hot pepper flakes, you stinky cunt?

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[QUOTE=Dr. Gonzo;3062557]Racye, did you get the hot pepper flakes, you stinky cunt?[/QUOTE]

YES! Had them on Pizza last night! Delicious! Thank you! My wife yelled at me for not having sent your hot sauces off and called me a bad friend. She was correct to do so in both cases.