in response to OP:
Too many wrist grab defenses…
You can’t learn enough wrist grab defences, I know over 20 and one thing is for sure, when the apocalypse is near and somebody will grab my wrist, I will so unleash on that poor fuck.
Oh, I would love you to video tape that, I believe that learning wrist grabs for the apocalypse is an ideal, and key life saver. HAHAH, poor fucker.
A self defense technique taught by our instructors to combat someone grabbing your hair was to interlace your fingers over their wrist and bend over, pulling them into a wristlock.
Note - We learned this immediately after studying how to knee someone in the face.
See I don’t exactly know what technique you are talking about (since you don’t discribe it so well) but if it is the technique I think it is, it works. Here is why.
- The attacker is in front of you grabbing your hair
- you grab his hand by smashing down your two on his bend fingers, you will dislocate or breaks his fingers, trust me, I have been an accidental victim to this, hurts like hell and I couldn’t use two fingers for a week
- you bend slightly forward and into your attacker, putting pressure on his wrist, forcing him to go down to his knees and/or push his hips back, in order to release the pressure on his wrist
- this will prevent him from kneeing you in the face, you then push his hands further down towards the ground (out of your hair) while keeping the pressure on his wrist
- you now apply knees or kicks to his face, push kick him backwards and either mount+gnp or soccer kick him for a little wile in the nuts or you retreat from the threat
So if you want to come across all cool and talk about stupid technique, pick one that is stupid, there are millions, yet you managed to pick one that actually works. Well done, I will neg rep you for your stupidity after posting this.
f4n4n,
You are assuming he learned it that way. Those ‘little’ details like bending forward into it weren’t necessarily taught to him, and are critical to putting pressure on the wrist.
Okay then just lets assume I have a positive approach in life (okay I don’t but just for the sake of argument).
I assumed he learned the technique correct because this is what you are supposed to do, learn a technique that is taught to you in the correct way, think about why you do those moves and then maybe even tweak it, make it better, add a twist.
When I go and assume that everything is taught wrong, why bother learning in the first place?
I am saying just because
- he does not have the skill/experience to understand the technique
- his teacher is a fuckwit who don’t know shit
does not make it a wrong technique.
All I am saying.
PS: When you come out here and point it out then you better have your facts down. I don’t come here and say the omaplata does not work because I never managed to get one work the 2 times I tried. It says only that a) I am stupid and don’t know shit b) I should have tried it more c) I haven’t been taught it right
It is actually a,b and c but that does not negate the fact that the technique is good and works.
Fair enough. However, it comes down to knowing what you don’t know. You know that omoplata’s work because:
1.) You’ve seen them work on televised MMA fights.
2.) You’ve had them done to you with full resistance in a competitive sparring match.
3.) You’ve had an expert show you how to make them work from a variety of positions.
If you have the above body of knowledge and can’t make them work then the only conclusion is: you suck at it.
However, with something like a wrist lock hair pull defense it is likely and probable that:
1.) It was shown in a class with little or no resistance allowed.
2.) It was taught by someone who has not had to use it themselves under pressure.
3.) No one in the class has ever had to use it.
Seeing it in that kind of environment, especially if the details are omitted, would lead one to believe: this technique is shitty. I’ll eat a knee to the face.
Okay, keeping your chain of thoughts, here is how it boils down.
- I know my training is good and my teacher is good, so I trust him
- I don’t think my trainer/training is good, so what am I doing there in the first place?
I have been taught techniques that are easy, fast and work and every other shade to complete Bullshido.
The point is, when ever there is something I come across that either strikes me as “wrong” or “I don’t get it” or “I have doubts about” there are three things I do.
- I ask to show me again and point out the “markers” (make or break points) of the technique
- I ask after class because I know my trainers are forced to show some technique (due to the curriculum) they would never use and mostly they point that out, sometimes they don’t due to they don’t want to drive a way new students.
- I know the technique is BS but I want to learn some of the good 10% the System offers me, I ignore the technique and take the pep talk for not training what I have been taught.
It struck me reading this that techniques saying something like “wrist locks dont work” or saying “wrist locks do work” is not specific enough.
I have succssesfully applied wrist locks on resisting people whilst working security, but they were not fighting me, nor were they trained fighters, but then I have also failed to apply wrist locks in fights and paid dearly for fucking about trying to. On other occasions I have succsessfully applied wrist locks in real situations against more dangerous opponents, but only after already hitting and stunning the person.
I do believe it would be suicide to try to wrist lock a decent fighter without setting them up first?
When debating techniques, I think we need to be more specific about the scenario or “theatre of operation” in which the techniques are being attempted?
See this is what MA are all about, not only MA but everything in life, do the right thing at the right time.
A wrist lock as a “first move” against a trained opponent, while you are facing him directly? I say 98% you are fucked
A wrist lock aiding your mate who is keeping the guy busy applied just right before your mate sets up one too or an arm lock? your chances are up to 98% and his are down to 2%
We had this discussion about “low percentage moves” I think a week ago, or one and a half, just read up, started by oldman34.
You learn all those moves and techniques just so you have more ways to go.
The only techniques I doom are “chi” based, no touch, pressure points (because I don’t have them expect my balls, this is a pressure point that works on me). I will be damned if somebody gets me with a hajuken.
Does a feint in boxing type handwork count as a no touch technique?
(just being cheeky)
Ps sorry what is a hajuken? (Im not a ninja)
I have been taught “no touch energy disruption stuff” but I now translate that as distract and set up techniques, much like a feint?
You never played Super streetfighter I/II (turbo) did you?!
Let’s hang on a motherfucking minute here.
You’re training in a system that has a load of bullshit in. This is by your own admission. You’ve failed to identify which system that is in your style field (which is, by the way, a bannable offence, so I’d go about fixing that fast if I were you). However, that you’re not training in something wholly solid already makes you suspect as a judge of technique. Systems with bullshit in tend to have bullshit in because they aren’t training in such a way that the bullshit gets weeded right back out again.
You may not be able to get the omoplata to work. However, we have video of top level fighters making it happen. This technique, on the other hand, I strongly suspect lacks any kind of supporting evidence of that nature. Frankly, it sounds like plain bullshit from your own description - you start with some retarded attempt at a finger lock? That sounds straight out of the aikidoka or ninjitsu playbook. And then you head into a wristlock? A standing wristlock? We’re deep in crappling territory here.
Have you sparred with this technique included? How’s it worked for you in sparring? If you haven’t sparred with it, and you can’t produce video of it working in a live setting, shut the fuck up already before the BJJihad gets here and you find your training getting investigated in a lot more detail than you’d like. If you have, well, I’m sure we’d all like to hear about this novel technique.
[quote=Sophist]You’ve failed to identify which system that is in your style field (which is, by the way, a bannable offence, so I’d go about fixing that fast if I were you). [quote]
Sorry, off thread question, I didnt realise this either. I have trouble puting a recognizable style or system as i train in what is I suppose my own mix of different things. Would multiple systems be acceptable?
Thread is called Worst Techniques not moves. Way to blast the noob for havin’ a go…f4n4n for diplomacy!
@sophist
Not my style field again, what ever I put there it pisses people off…
If you want to know what I train, click on my forum profile, there you can see it. If you are to lazy, I help you
That is for my experience and my style.
My 3 options in your quote refer to different systems I train(ed).
How I know the technique I described works? I have tried it, alot, both sides, giving and recieving and as I mentioned earliere, I almost got my fingers broken by only the initial part of the technique with a little too much “effort” put into it.
I am not the guy who is compliant for the most time training those techniques. Why?
Two reasons, it makes your training partner focus and apply the technique correct because only then they will manage to get me down or what ever.
And ofcours I want to know if the shit works.
You try to put on some pressure point shit, I laugh you off and maybe also bitch slap you, just to show that it does not work and I am not your bitch.
Oh and yes we also spared different ways using this technique, worked!
PS: Yes I train systems that are BS for most stuff we do. JJ has a lot of stupid stuff, on the ground though it has something to offer for me, it is not BJJ I know that but it is “as close as I can get” and I will take that instead of nothing (read about it in my threads on my JJ training I explain the stuff in detail there). Same for Allkampf, they have 90% stupid shit but I tell you those 10% are worth the training.
Oh and you did get the technique wrong, there is not finger lock in the entire technique.
You want to question me or my skill? Go ahead, you are welcome… (I only post when I know my shit and this is kicking and self defence)
@pooeater yeah I probably shouldn’t have rolled over him like that but I say BS is not the place to ask for a free lunch and I was pissed in general…
Still my critique stands.
I never signed up for the Zoints bullshit; it annoyed me. This means that sadly I’ve no access to your forum profile, and so I only have your style field to go on. Most of what I’m seeing in your post of your profile, though, judo and muay thai apart, isn’t exactly filling me with extreme confidence.
This is what in JMA would be called uke-tori training, correct? Why would you even bring uke-tori training up? It’s completely fucking worthless as a metric of technique value.
Now we’re talking. What were the parameters of the drill? What were you allowed to do? Was it MMA rules with hair-pulling? Was hard contact striking allowed? Was it full sparring, or technique sparring?
Okay, I went looking. You said in this post here:
No BS Martial Arts - View Single Post - My crazy plan of training BJJ
that your JJ has “little ground game” and compared the judo you do, which of course doesn’t really focus on subs from top positions. I’m not seeing why JJ suddenly has something to offer on the ground for you.
Well, it did look like you missed words while typing it out. “You grab his hand by smashing down your two on his bend fingers, you will dislocate or breaks his fingers” - your two? Your two what? And fingers curled into a grab position really aren’t that easy to dislocate or break, which makes me sceptical right from the outset. It happens once in a while in judo, where the grip breaks are often violently ballistic, but it’s not that frequent an occurrence.
Well, this isn’t kicking. So… we’re talking “self defence” here, and that’s a field that’s got more shit in it than a cesspool in a dysentry epidemic. Anything which claims “self defence” and features a standing wristlock is just inviting an inspection visit from the Crappling Police.
Stick down as many of the things you train in as you can fit, with the most trained/currently trained first. If you’re not training formally, you could stick down something like “backyard grappling/striking”, but people are going to judge you on that so if you’ve former training under an instructor I think you’d be better advised to put that in.
Here’s the site policy on style fields thread, it’s found at the top of the support forum:
Style Profile Field: Stop the BS - No BS Martial Arts
you have seen my training? Or you just “judge” from your state of mind? tell me?! I agree that some of these styles have questionable technique and all, never said otherwise but the point is, the all have something to offer, which the other arts don’t, therefore I take that happily, anything wrong with that?
I take a leap and say my TKD training is top notch, not only TKD wise but also for general stand up. And you can question that and I will reply if you want to know but via PM or in a different thread (don’t want to completely derail this thread)
This is what in JMA would be called uke-tori training, correct? Why would you even bring uke-tori training up? It’s completely fucking worthless as a metric of technique value.
Well if you think so, this is your opinion and your are entitled to it. I train this a little different from what you might know. We start easy, get a feel, a few reps in and then we built up the resistance, add speed and all to make the drill as close to “fight/sparing” as possible, we attack random at full speed etc. If that is not enough for you I am sorry but it is for me.
Now we’re talking. What were the parameters of the drill? What were you allowed to do? Was it MMA rules with hair-pulling? Was hard contact striking allowed? Was it full sparring, or technique sparring?
We do usually several variations.
- really gas out first and then declare one the “defender” people line up and attack him at will with random techniques/attacks, you have to defend the attacks and try to keep your attacker and the others in line so you don’t get your back taken (It is about fighting and keeping track of what is going around you)
- 1 on 1 attack at will, random technique/attack
- 2 on 1 attack at will, random technique/attack
We are not supposed to give 100% but it is accepted that things get a little heavy after a few attacks, we are not fighting full but it is close.
Okay, I went looking. You said in this post here:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1864654&postcount=5
that your JJ has “little ground game” and compared the judo you do, which of course doesn’t really focus on subs from top positions. I’m not seeing why JJ suddenly has something to offer on the ground for you.
This was the wrong thread but it is besides the point… and it has something to offer, when you have nothing(ground game) and get offered a little, do you take it or say no I only want 100%? I say I take it. I know it is not perfect but it is the best I can get at the moment… you are with me here?
Well, it did look like you missed words while typing it out. “You grab his hand by smashing down your two on his bend fingers, you will dislocate or breaks his fingers” - your two? Your two what? And fingers curled into a grab position really aren’t that easy to dislocate or break, which makes me sceptical right from the outset. It happens once in a while in judo, where the grip breaks are often violently ballistic, but it’s not that frequent an occurrence.
It was an ellipsis, I was talking about your own two hands. Okay you try this with somebody, let him grab your hair from the front and pull a little towards him.
You spread the fingers of both of your hands and put them together (like a zipper), face the insides of your now “together” hand towards the top of your head, where he grabs with his fingers, push/strike down as hard as you can… have fun cooling his fingers.
Please try it and report back.
Well, this isn’t kicking. So… we’re talking “self defence” here, and that’s a field that’s got more shit in it than a cesspool in a dysentry epidemic. Anything which claims “self defence” and features a standing wristlock is just inviting an inspection visit from the Crappling Police.
Come and investigate.
The issue is, it is not a wrist lock in the traditional sense, you use it to force him down and then proceed with knees or kicks to his face, it is a transition, nothing else. And again try it make sure you grab his hands after you smashed your two hands down. (as described above)
PS: I don’t know why you have to bring your BJJhad here… he stated a technique he thinks is “BS” and I say it is not and point out why, if you can’t deal with that or have a problem with that, this is up to you.
If you on the other hand have a question or difficulties understanding something, I am more than happy to help you.
No, and it has never been on this site. “Resistance” that’s defined as being awkward as opposed to genuinely 100% fighting back from before the technique is even started is not the resistant training everyone’s so keen to big up here. That point’s been made over and over on dozens if not hundreds of threads. How have you missed it?
This, motherfucker, is not sparring. This is closest to the aikido version of “randori”, and it’s a poor substitute for the real thing. We don’t accept it as a validation of aikido technique, and we’re sure as hell not going to accept it as a validation of this.
At this point, I don’t really need to see your training. You’ve just told me what its pressure testing consists of; it’s the same bollocks I used to put up with in the “traditional” jujitsu I started MA with, and I know exactly how much that can be relied on.
I’ve done plenty of this stuff in actual gi-grip break situations, where you have some honest to god leverage working in your favour rather than flailing about on the top of your head where you’ve got that much less - and, much of the time, against a judoka with a decent grip, it’s not even necessarily going to budge them, let alone dislocate their fingers.
You, sir, are a crappler. That’s a problem, but provided you acknowledge this and don’t try to lecture people on technique, I can deal with it. When you start neg repping newbies for speaking out against your crappling bullshit, you become an enemy to this site’s mission, and you must be dealt with appropriately.