I like TSD but it’s too true to not laugh.
I train in London with Master Suresh Nar. I train in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan under him.
Cool, we’ll have to meet and train some time. London UK I take it…
*In fact, I’m organising a pressure testing session for 17th April in central london. Let me know if you’re interested.
Re the history of TSD. The cartoon is said to be inaccurate by some TSDers but not a single one has pointed out what is in error -which says something I think…
I’m going to write an article with the cartoon and relevant cross-references to sources etc, at submit it to the cartoons section of the articles (thanks for making the home for Fantasy Warrior Phrost, sorry it takes me so long to sort out articles).
If anyone can see any errors, please point them out, as I don’t weanty to be hypocritical.
Yes indeed London UK
I’d be interested to hear more about this pressure testing thingy up town. Not sure if i can make it though, need to see if I can get out of stuff. Sounds good though.
if you can get ur hands on it GM Hwang Kee’s history of moo duk kwan book is a decent resource. but when i read it i cud feel the anti TKD propaganda a little. I dunno maybe just me and my dislike of TKD.
I’ve heard a few things about TSD’s origin, including the “traces back 2,000 years” theory to some cave scribblings… My WTSDA manual barely mentions Hwang Kee at all, with just an anecdotal “…and Master Hwang Kee organized the “Korean Soo Bahk Do Association” on November 9, 1945.”
Most of the ancient history tells a quick glance over the Three Kingdoms period, and then switches to WWII era history. Then it goes a bit more modern, when it says that “In 1968 Master Jae Chul Shin came to the United States of America as the U.S. representative for the Korean Soo Bahk Do Association. He formed the United States Tang Soo Do Federation in Burlington, New Jersey.”
If anyone is interested, just give the word, and I’ll type up the rest of the history.
please do, i am interested. thats interesting that the US TSD Federation HQ is in NJ. The US Soo Bahk Do Federation HQ is in NJ too.
Well, the WTSDA HQ is located in Philadelphia, but will soon be moving to Parkesburg. That’s not very far from where I live, about a half-hour drive at most.
http://worldtangsoodo.com/events/Building/
I’ll post the manual later.
Well, if people post it on various korean MA/TSD forums we can pick up any errors.
As it is, no TSder outside of Bullshido likes it but still none can point out where it’s factually inaccurate.
Actually, now that I look in the manual… it says:
“Reproduction of all or part of this manual without written authorization is prohibited. This book is for members use only.”
Unfortunately, I don’t think I’ll be able to type it up then. I don’t want to be banned. :sad5:
luckily i have no such fears and will post the contents of my manual as soon as a) it’s not 3 in the morning and b) i’ve sobered up!
Someone got Wall of Shame’d for posting copywritten materials.
I just got the go-ahead from Omega that I could post my manual’s history. Beaney, I assume you can do the same. Go on ahead.
WTSDA Manual’s History of Tang Soo Do
Brief History
The exact origin of Tang Soo Do, as well as any of the martial arts in general, is obscure, though there are a number of historical theories. However, the most credible and traditional view is that martial arts originated not in any one country, but in all parts of the globe, as they were needed by primitive people.
Development in Early Ages
The ancestral art of Korean Tang Soo Do can be traced back approximately 2,000 years. At that time, Korea was divided into three kingdoms.
Koguryo was founded in 37 BC in northern Korea. The Silla Dynasty was founded in 57 BC in the southeast peninsula, and Paekche, in the southwest, was founded in 18 BC.
After a long series of wars, the Silla Dynasty united the three kingdoms in 668 AD. During this period of time, the primitive martial arts were very popular in warfare. This is evidenced by mural paintings, ruins and remains, which depicted Tang Soo Do in those days.
Among the three kingdoms, the Silla Dynasty was most famous for its development of martial arts. A corps formed by young aristocrats who were called the “Hwa Rang Dan” was the major group who developed those arts. These warriors were instrumental in unifying the peninsula as the new Silla Dynasty (668 AD-935 AD), and furnished many of the early leaders of that dynasty. Most Korean martial arts trace their spiritual and technical heritage to this group. The names of some groups and arts reflected this, such as Hwa Rang Do or Hwa Soo Do. Our Five Codes of Tang Soo Do, originated by Won Kwang, a monk are part of their spiritual heritage.
Medieval Development
The unified Silla Kingdom was overthrown by a warloard, Wang Kun, in 918 AD and a new kingdom, called “Koryo,” lasted for 475 years. In 1392 AD the New Kingdom, Yi Dynasty, succeeded and lasted about 500 years. Approximately a thousand year period elapsed between the two dynasties. Tang Soo Do became very popular among the military society. However, most importantly, this art also became very popular with the general public. In those days it was called Kwon Bop, Tae Kyun, Soo Bahk, Tang Soo, etc.
The very first complete martial arts book was written at this time. This most important book is called “Mooyae Dobo Tongji.” It was written in 1790 AD and contained illustrations that substantiate the theory that “Soo Bahk Ki,” the formal name of Tang Soo Do, had quickly developed into a sophisticated art of combat techniques.
Modern History
The subsequent occupation of Korea by the Japanese military regime took place from 1909 to 1945. During this period, practicing and teaching of martial arts were restricted.
After World War II, this restriction was lifted. Several martial arts training school were erected at that time, as follows:
Moo Duk Kwan by Hwang Kee
Chi Do Kwan by Kwai Byung, Yun
Chung Do Kwan by Duk Sung, Son
Song Moo Kwan by Byung Jik, No
Chang Moo Kwan by Nam Suk, Lee
Yun Moo Kwan by Sang Sup, Chun
These founders started to organize their own organizations respectively and Master Hwang Kee organized the “Korean Soo Bahk Do Association” on November 9th, 1945.
Beside the Soo Bahk Do Association, there were various types of martial arts called “Kong Soo” or “Tae Soo” existing in Korea. In 1965, all of these various systems were united into one organization, called the Korean Tae Kwon Do Association and the art was called “Tae Kwon Do” uniformly.
As a Korean national sport, Tae Kwon Do initiated a new era; instructors were dispatched throughout the world and international tournaments were held. In those days, Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do were divided principally, with Tang Soo Do striving to remain as a traditional martial art while Tae Kwon Do held its world games and sports.
I have done the best of my abilities to transcribe this exactly how it looks in the manual. Bold print and italics were inserted by me as way to differentiate the sections. This passage only revolves around the “historical” aspects of TSD. Another passage after this tells about the history of the World Tang Soo Do Association itself, starting in 1968 when Master Jae Chul Shin came to the US as the US representative to the Korean Soo Bahk Do Association.
I can’t exactly say I believe the history section. There’s a ton of loopholes in it, like what happens between medieval history and 1790. What happens between 1790 and 1909. No mention of lineage, and the 2,000 year old theory holds about as much water as a sieve. And as far as the Hwa Rang connection… Well, the Hwa Rang… :bs: :thefinger: There is no such documentation or proof of any connection going back that far, even if someone did scribble on a cave. There is no documentation or proof of any technique of any nature from the Hwa Rang.
I did come across something about the Hwa Rang Do organzation which also detracts from the Hwa Rang connection:
http://www.hwarang.org/Personal.html
http://www.hwarang.org/Warning.html
The Three Kingdoms
In the beginning, Korea was divided into three kingdoms: Silla, Korguryo, and Paekche.
Silla, formed in 57 B.C. in the southeastern part of the peninsula, was at first the smallest and weakest of the three kingdoms.
Koguryo was founded in 37 B.C. in the northern part of the country. Mural paintings on the ceiling of a royal tomb from the Koguryo Dynasty show unarmed men using techniques identical to those of modern day Tang Soo Do. This indicates that the martial arts were practiced very early in Korea’s history.
Paekche was founded around 18 B.C. in the southwest peninsula in the vicinity of present day Seoul. Among the three kingdoms, the Silla Dynasty was the most famous for the development of the martial arts.
Silla Dynasty 668 to 935 A.D.
After a long series of wars, the three kingdoms were unified under the Silla Dynasty around 668 A.D. During the Silla Dynasty, young noblemen banded together to form a patriotic society called the Hwa Rand-Do which means “The Way of Flowering Manhood.” This order trained select aristocratic youth of Korea to be great military and spiritual leaders.
Influenced by Confucianism, these young warriors learned empthy-hand combat and military tactics as well as history, philosophy, poetry, and morality. The Hwa Rang were responsible for the spread of Tae Kyun throughout Korea.
Koreans and practitioners of the Korean martial arts take special pride in the heritage of the Hwa Rang warriors, who serve as examples of a unique blend of spiritual and physical training. The spirit of Hwa Rang is still present today in the courage and strength of the Korean people
Ko Ryo Dynasty 935 to 1392
During the 9th century, the Silla Dynasty was overthrown, and the three kingdoms emerged again for a brief time. Wnag Kon, a warrior and statesman, unified the kingdoms once again and called the new kingdom Ko Ryo. The name Korea comes from this ancient dynasty. During this time great advances were made in the development of Soo Bahk Ki, another style of Korean martial art. Also, the focus of the art changed from a system designed to promote fitness into a fighting art.
Yi Dynasty 1392 to 1907
This was a “dark ages” period for martial arts in Korea. The state religion changed from Buddhism to Confucianism. Martial Arts were frowned upon in favour of classical Chinese learning. During the second half of the Yi Dynasty, Tae Kyun / Subak’s importance declined due to political conflict and the de-emphasis of military activities in favour of more scholarly pursuits. However, in 1790, Yi DUk Moo compiled a text on Korean martial arts entitled Moo yei Dobo Tong Ji. The Book illustrated many parts of martial training and became the standard text for instruction. The publiction of this book popularized the martial arts among the general population, whereas before, the art had been restricted primarily to the military nobility.
Japanese Occupation 1909 to 1945
The occupation of Korea by the Japanese took place from 1909 to 1945. The Japanese banned the practice of all martial arts for the Korean people. To maintain their martial arts’ tradition, many Koreans secretly studied and practiced the fighting arts. When Korea was liberated from the Japanese at the end of World War II, many martial arts schools opened through Korea.
Modern History of the Martial Arts
Because the masters had studied in different places and even in different countries during the japanese occupation, the masters were influenced by different styles. One master, Hwang Kee, spent his early years in Korea secretly training, practicing, and perfecting his skills in Tae Kyun and Soo Bahk Do.
During the Japanese occupation, Master Hwang was arrested and imprisoned by the Japanese. He escaped and fled to Manchuria, where he continued to train in empty hand forms. When he returned to Korea from China in 1945, Grandmaster Hwang Kee established his first school in Seoul, Korea: Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. Grandmaster Hwang Kee’s school promoted brotherhood and the development of virtue according to “the way of the worthy hand.”
For many years after the libertaion, a variety of martial art styles were taught in Korea. Although each school claimed to teach traditional Korean martial arts, each emphasized a different aspect of Tae Kyun/Subak, and so various names emerged such as Soo Bahk Do, Kwon Bob, Tang Soo, Hwa Soo and Kong Soo Do.
In 1955, many of the kwans (schools) were unified under a common name, Tae Soo Do Association. Several name changes occured but, in May 1973, the organization was renamed the World Tae Kwon Do Federation (WTF).
Between 1955 and 1960 when the majority of masters agreed to merge their various styles, Tang Soo Do practitioners and Tae Kwon Do practitioners divided.
To preserve the traditional style of the martial arts as influenced by Tae Kyun and Soo Bahk Do, Grandmaster Hwang Kee maintained his original Moo Duk Kwan organization. While many of the techniques of Tang Soo Do are similar to those of Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do differs in it’s approach. Tang Soo Do is not a sport, and it is not primarily concerned with competition. Tang Soo Do strives to remain a fully traditionalart, which is designed to develop character through equal emphasis on physical, mental and spiritual instruction.
The cartoon is a good summary of GM Kee’s history as it is told today.
My understanding is that he did revceive some training in shotokan. He did not just learn it from a book.
The style and techniques are for more japanese/okinawan than chinese. You really don’t see any chinese techniques in forms until after balck belt.
As for karatefourms.com, they really bug me, only beacuse there are so many people claiming they are 5th degree masters and they obviously don’t know shit or they have never bothered to research outside the school that trained them.
Interesting how those ‘histories’ of TSD emphasise the ancient Korean angle (which is at best speculation) and almost completely ignore the Hwrang kee / Japanese MA during the occupation -both of which are reasonably well documented… depending on how much weight you give Hwang’s account.
typical of the whitewash of Korean MA history…
His account is definately slanted. I think it comes mainly to market his art as Korean to compete against TKD.
His writtings never slams TKD by name, but he does Slam Martial arts that become sports.
He spent 4-5 yrs battling the Korean government to keep his federation alive while the government was primping up TKD. These days in Korea only the old folk know what “Soo Bahk Do” or “Tang Soo Do” is… most of the big associations for Tang Soo Do are located elsewhere like in the US (WTSD, US SBD Federation) or UK (Kang Uk Lee’s). So yea theyre a little bitter. Imagine you open a really big school somewhere and then have the government come in and try to force you to join TKD.
I was in Korea last year. Try buying a stanard karate uniform or a Tang Soo do uniform.
I was told by 3 stores that TSD/ moo duk kwan does not exist or it’s TKD. Then they tried to sell me a V neck TKD uniform.