Why do you need to condition your fingertips to strike someone in the throat?
Why do you need ridiculous amounts of precision to strike a controlled attacker in the throat or side of neck?
I am amazed at the responses of some people, especially since I never once advocated using spearhands.
If you can’t even hit a pillow without hurting your fingertips, something is seriously wrong with you, not the technique.
Must be one firm-ass pillow…
An example… Saturday we had class. Our senior instructor was demonstrating “options” based on angle and distance in the use of an inside block (arm is held roughly 90 degrees, elbow one fist’s width away from the torso, shoulders “swallowed,” blocking/deflecting/making contact with the radial side of the arm, palm facing upward). One option is that of deflecting the incoming strike with an “underhanded spearhand,” or a spearhand with palm up (as opposed to palm down), into the often exposed throat of the attacker.
Granted, this works far better if a checking hand has already “deflected” the incoming strike, and the spearhand follows a split second behind. It also requires that you break the timing of the opponent’s combination (gotta be prepared for that 1-2 combo) and hit in the “space” between the middle of the first punch and the beginning of the second. However, that being said, it isn’t all that tough to do, and I managed to get a numbed tongue for my trouble (I was the crash test dummy).
Anyway.
Sounds a lot like folks wanting to throw out the hedge clippers because they’ve never needed them, don’t know how to use them (well), and can’t foresee needing to clip any hedges. Doesn’t mean it isn’t good to have them in the shed…
Whatever. I like them, and am actually motivated (thanks to this thread) to get back to working on mine…
Or that it doesn’t work?
… Obviously my intent was lost on the more ardent enthusiasts of this worthless maneuver. My point was this - 99% of people who practice the strike in the dojo could not strike EVEN a pillow without hurting their hands. I know how to do the damn strike correctly. I’ve DONE the damn strike correctly. I’ve done the whole board breaking bit and hitting a guy in the solar plexus bit. It hurts like hell even when you DO do it right. If you don’t do it right, you break your fingers.
Whatever. You wanna waste your time learning this technique, more power to you. This technique has no practical benefits and I BEG someone to argue otherwise. Explain to me how compromising safety for a minutely focused strike that could be acheived with far safer and more effective strikes is practical.
Spearhand to throat - I’d rather knifehand/chop if I’m not going to punch.
Spearhand to solarplexus - I’d rather punch.
Spearhand to ‘soft point’ - I’d rather do a frigging crane beak strike. At least that one tends not to leave your fingers feeling like they’ve been hit with a hammer. But again, why do this when you can just punch and lead with your two knuckles on the spot? More penetration? Whatever. The move is larp-tastic pure and simple. Leopard style fists (I don’t know any other way to describe it) also work wonders if you’re going for a fancy style strike. Personally I’ve given up all those ‘spiffy’ hand strikes in favor of basic punches, palms and other moves which are less likely to break my damn fingers.
Further; if you can find a way to do this without breaking your fingers, good for you! Open a school for it!
Guess what?
You were taught wrong, and therefore didn’t do the strike correctly.
It’s not meant to be aimed at the solar plexus, and breaking boards with it is just stupid in a psuedo-badass kind of way.
Re-read what I wrote on how it’s supposed to be used.
Because if you’re doing it right, there’s no safety compromised.
Good for you, though they serve completely different tactical purposes.
No, you were taught LARPtastic methods for using it, and seem to be unable to grasp anything beyond that.
Re-read my original post.
How would I break my fingers on your trachea?
Conclusion: Some people are unable to see beyond their own past incorrect training.
Ok, I’m not going to claim that the spearhand is the be all/end all superstrike of doom, but if some one of my relative inexperience can safely spearhand a mattress, I have to question how someone hurt themselves spearhanding a pillow. As Matt said, our instructor was demonstrating some uses of the spearhand last week (I missed saturday class, but I recall something similar from Wednsday).
Wow man. You know, for the record, as far as TKD guys go I’ve had alot of respect for you in the past. You’re within I guess about 3 hours of me, do the whole throwdown thing, and seem pretty intelligent when you post. Plus, hot chicks ftw. That being said, I disagree with you on this; further, you seem to be consistently misreading my posts or something.
So now that I’m not hurried because I’m on my lunch break I’ll take the time to clear up any confusion.
The board breaking thing: That’s to indicate that the correct technique was done. Becuase seriously; spearhanding isn’t difficult to grasp. But doing it in a way that won’t result in broken fingers on a semi-hard target is. I was about 13-15 at the time, in a TKD school which had decent instruction (from what I’ve seen it was more like a traditional kickboxing school than TKD). There was alot of TKD larping though. Good ol forms, board breaking, demos, crap like that. Now of course 10 years later it’s degraded into a shitfest, but back then at least it had the ‘making it actually work’ part included. Not to mention lots of decent sparring. Depending on the gear you had you could go light sparring, point sparring, or FC. I opted for FC.
That being said, it wasn’t a great school, but it sure as hell wasn’t total shit. I’m telling you this so you at least understand my background enough to know that I didn’t come from some ‘hands down at your sides WTF’ school.
I’d like to believe I know how to do a spearhand. To me it’s not rocket science but to describe what we did is point do the whole hand into a spear shape, point the hand down about 30 degrees so you are striking with the tips of the index and middle fingers. The angling down was supposedly so that you aren’t striking straight on and potentially breaking your fingers. Gave a little flex and worst case your hand would slide off and stay in one piece. I do not have a digital camera available, I would take a picture. Personally I find that my ring and pinky fingers tend to kind of stay loose and separated so my hand comes off more like a fork-hand than anything else.
I would be interested in seeing pictures/demos of the ‘proper’ way to do this. Everyone is telling me that I’m doing it wrong without seeing me do it, so I’m curious to see what the right way is. I leave the onus on you to provide the proper education, since you are a supporter of the technique.
That being said, you asked me to refer to your initial post. Going back it looks like that’s post 11. Feel free to correct me if you will. I specifically said that superior techniques were available to the spearhand. I cannot, in my head, think of a single situation which I would say “yes, a spearhand is preferable to anything else”. This is my point. Sure, maybe you can make it work on a soft target. What happens if that soft target moves? You end up striking say the jawbone with those fingers… and break them? Then what? Why risk that potential injury?
In your OWN post you indicated that you would personally prefer to knee them in the face. I agree completely with you on this. It’s safer and I would reckon has higher destructive capability. So why waste your time on a spearhand? Obviously the knee is superior at that juncture. Why hit the carotid in first place? Are you trying to sever it?
To me this seems inefficient and like LARPing. Sorry man, that’s just my 2c.
I don’t think I’m ever going to be able to clarify the pillow comment enough for everyone to understand it. Sorry about the confusion. This is what I get for violating my rule of ‘don’t make halfassed posts on the intarwebs’.
Interesting.
I was thinking the same thing of you and LI Guy 1.
Again, Phillips versus flathead.
I thought the analogy said it all earlier, but I guess not.
Let me clarify.
Why in the name of Buddha’s bunghole would you use a spearhand on a hard or semi-hard target?
Which again, likely means you didn’t learn half of the things contained in Okinawan kata correctly, including the spearhand.
Good to hear. It still doesn’t mean your instructor had a solid grasp of the reasoning behind the Okinawan kata that many TKD techniques are derived from.
It’s not how.
It’s where, when, and why.
Stop focusing on the hand itself. Re-read my original post.
Go back, and read my post again. Your questions have already been answered.
I never said the knee was superior.
Superior via what criteria?
Inefficient according to what criteria?
Larping how?
How is that description of Nidan application wrong? Maybe some more description. Following the second kia (right stepping punch, leaving the arm out) check over the shoulder, open hands, and bring the left foot to the right. The left shoulder should be between 7 and 8 o clock, face towards 10 and 11 o clock. Twist hips, spearhand in, step over, follow with another.
As this was explained to me, the movement is dodgeing a sidekick and then counter attacking to the appoinents abdomen between the pelvis and ribs, roughly kidney height. Granted, getting hurt there with a hard spear hand hurts, but I don’t think it’s the best movement for the situation. The idea of that dodge with that counter frankly seems a little bit fantasy for real combat application.
Which means it is not the original intent.
Ok, I get what you’re saying now. Yeah, I agree with you that the application as it’s used in the kata is incorrect. For straight up fighting though, I can only see it as a gimmick thing. Since no one throws them, no one expects them. Just not a lot of opportunity, since, in my dojo, punching someone in the throat is sort of looked down upon. Not that you can’t do it, it’s jsut not that polite.
See, we could argue about this, and talk about different bunkai and all that, but instead.
You’re a douche, flame on.
hay look a bunny.
:pancakebu
Okinawan kata. To the best of my knowledge, never learned it. That’s probably at least part of the basis of our miscommunication.
That being said, I did go back and re-read your post. Again.
Rule #2 effectively is your arguement. I’m sorry I missed the ‘unobstructed shot’. I still believe that there are better opportunities available. I don’t understand the logic of saying “I’m going to go for a spearhand” versus the plethora of other strikes which are available.
Former instructor. And perhaps he did and I didn’t. Or both. Who knows. I don’t particularly care anymore, given that I’ve been out of TKD for at least 9 years.
In part. Not in full. Your explaination of a specific application based on kata could use some pictures, unfortunately. Not all of us know the same things you do. I have a basic idea in my head of the positioning you’re talking about but ultimately it would be greatly assisted with actual pictures. Look man, I’m trying now to be reasonable. Sure, I had my ‘internet asshole’ hat on before, but see i’ve taken it off and placed it aside in an effort to better understand your application. So please, for the sake of clarification, explain to me that which I asked.
I already stated in my post:
Based on your comment in post 11:
Why would you more likely throw knees to the face?
Is it because they are more preferable?
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/preferable
I always hate having to dissect a post after someone else dissects one of mine just to be able to respond. It’s so much work!
Inefficient in the respect of having a more preferable technique.
LARPing because it seems like “live action role playing” to me that you’re going to do wanton destructive damage to someone’s vitals with a hand shaped like a spear. Like people (not necessarily you) are imagining that their hand literally has powers properties SIMILAR (but not the same) to a spear.
Here are the parts of your initial post that I pose my questions based on:
In terms of questionable effectiveness or being unable to practice because it’s too dangerous?
Why not?
These seem to answer B) but I wanted to give the opportunity for B to be clarified.
These two I agree with C but not with D.
I still would like to know what you believe you would gain by attacking someone’s carotid as specified in post 11. This is not to be fecetious; rather - I an genuinely curious as to what benefits there would be. Can you legitimately cause severe injury to a person in this manner? If so, that would seem to validate the use, wouldn’t it?
I hope I didn’t come off as TOO Much of an asshole, as again I am interested in having a reasonable discussion on this. You obviously believe that it works. I obviously have personal experience that dictates otherwise for me. We were striking two different targets. Both strikes were learned by specific moves in kata, though seemingly different kata.
Does that track? I hope that doesn’t come off as some hopelessly jumbled dyslexic mess of logic. I drank a little too much coffee today and my brain is all over the place.
My base style is Okinawan karate, but I wouldn’t even consider using a spearhand except to jab an eye after grabbing the guy with my other hand. OTOH, I’d probably just go with a closed-fist strike, a knee, an elbow, or teh d3adly karate chop instead.
The only real use for spear hands in my opinion is striking to the throat, otherwise anywhere else its too hard for you to do any real damage. Punching is a much more conventional and idiot proof way to deal out damage.
HEY I can break 1/2 " boards with my spearhand …I ripped a fingernail almost completely off but I did it … but when I am excited I tend to at least curl my fingers into a leopard fist as mentioned above . I like to do macho BS tricks with stiff fingers … but that is all for fun . I would never strike anyone and mean it with a spear hand .
I keep reading new info and outlooks and my opinions aren’t changing .
It is weird .
This was what I was thinking when I said “other hand forms to the neck area” A leapord fist is maybe ever so slightly less pinpoint, but, it is tougher, and can therefore be used at higher speeds. which = more pain
Spear hands? Fuck off