I guess in theory a spearhand would be better able to get under a tucked chin than a fist, but if the targets that small, why are you aiming for it? That said, Wado’s Pinan Nidan has a guy throwing a spear hand to the abdomen, hopefully landing in the soft spot between the abdominals and the side (lats?). Still not something I’d want to try against anyone with good conditioning/ wearing a stiff Gi. Wonderful thing about theory, it makes anything theoretically possible.
Every weapon has its use. Just because the conditioning for a given body weapon is no longer common doesn’t rule out it’s utility and effectiveness. Few people anymore have the patience for the conditioning and development for general martial arts training, preferring instead the “quick fix” (as evidenced by the popularity of RBSD systems, as well as other indicators).
That having been said, remember that every weapon, every tool, has its own job. I’ve heard it said before “soft weapons for hard surfaces, hard weapons for soft surfaces,” and though that’s not doctrine within our school, it sure makes sense - open palm for skull, fist for body.
Anyway, our curriculum notes that spear hands are used for: throat, side of neck, armpits, solar plexus/abdomen (sides more than front, but front too), inquinal crease. Much beyond that and you’re venturing into territory more suited for other weapons.
I’ve seen my teacher spear hand through a red fireplace brick. I know it can be done, with the right training. I, however, haven’t put myself through that training, so I can’t do it personally, but I’ve seen others do it, so I know it’s possible.
See above.
How do you throw a linear hammer fist in a thrusting motion?
Perhaps my explanation was not visual enough.
Yes, a punch to the side of the neck (not the throat) will cause damage and serve it’s purpose, but it is not a pin-point accurate delivery system. As I said, I do not srr much point in training this technique as the likelihood of using it is very slim, and the possible consequences of using it is not something I would like to have to deal with.
Re-read my original post.
The application you describe from Pinan Nidan is wrong.
How is the spear hand any more effective at striking those points than a closed fist? Why condition your hands to hit targets like the side of neck/solar plexus etc. when the fist can already do it? Why bother conditioning your hand to break a brick when your fist can do it easier (not that that still dosen’t take conditioning too)?
Referring to “soft weapons for hard surfaces, hard weapons for soft surfaces” that is all good. Palms or fists depending on the target. But to me the spear is neither soft or hard, it is fragile and inefficient.
You don’t. But from the position you described you can still land a hammerfist to the neck/back of head. Why can’t the strike be circular?
“Wrong” is pure speculation on your part. Moreover, if its stupid and it works, it aint stupid.
Though spearhanding someone in the lat would be very stupid…
Also, a spear hand is not a pin point delivery system. It is a hand form. You mean a spear hand has less surface area that hits the target I suppose? So it puts more force into a point? OK. But a lot more power can be generated from a punch or hammer so its a moot point.
How about instead of the spear hand we use a leapord fist? Thats what I learned it as, make a spear hand and fold at the middle knuckes. You now have the smaller surface area of the spear and are striking with the points of the knuckles which is more solid than finger tips. I can see this as useful for the other targets listed.
Greater penetrative damage.
You don’t.
To you. Don’t use it then.
Thank you for missing the entire point of what I posted.
You just contradicted yourself.
Power is generated not in the fist or hand shape, but in the body through motion of the feet, legs, hips, and shoulders.
A spear hand would hit with just as much “power” as a cross.
All you’re doing is opening your hand.
Irrelevant.
Also, is there a reason why you used three separate posts to address one post I made?
Actually, it’s not.
You just contradicted yourself.
Power is generated not in the fist or hand shape, but in the body through motion of the feet, legs, hips, and shoulders.
A spear hand would hit with just as much “power” as a cross.
All you’re doing is opening your hand.
Irrelevant.
Yeah, I’m too lazy to edit existing posts and one of your posts came as I was writing one of mine. The conditioning thing was directed at Matt Stone.
DerAuslander108: you say greater penetrative damge is done with the spear hand. you also say that you don’t condition it. How is it possible then to hit a target other than the throat unless you condition it to be able to strike a target with such force without being injured?
A spearhand can’t cause greater penetrative damage if it is not able to withstand being used as a forcefull weapon. Just like I can’t throw punches harder than my wrist will allow(or it breaks)
Yes.
Yes.
Do you use a Phillips to screw in a flathead?
Duh!
Smaller striking surface, concentrating the focus of the strike.
Why condition your hands to hit targets like the side of neck/solar plexus etc. when the fist can already do it?
To me, it’s about maximizing the total potential. “Better is the enemy of good enough,” was a motto above a Soviet general’s desk (relating to the difference between US and USSR mentality), and it’s a good guiding principal, I think, for MAists to keep in their training area. A fist may be “good enough,” but sometimes there’s another option that you might have the opportunity to use.
Why bother conditioning your hand to break a brick when your fist can do it easier (not that that still dosen’t take conditioning too)?
Again, it’s about maximizing the total offensive potential of the body instead of “settling” for an easier option. You don’t drive screws into the wall with a hammer, and you don’t pound nails in with a screwdriver.
Referring to “soft weapons for hard surfaces, hard weapons for soft surfaces” that is all good. Palms or fists depending on the target. But to me the spear is neither soft or hard, it is fragile and inefficient.
It is a specific tool intended for specific use. It is efficient at what it is intended for, but it isn’t a generic “multi-tool” the way a fist is.
Potentially, the perceived force will be greater than with a punch. The body generates X force. If that force is distributed across the surface area of a punch (roughly 2.5" x 3.5") it will have a distinctly different effect than if distributed across an area much, much smaller (roughly 1/2" x 1 1/2"). The nature of the target area (in this case the throat or armpit) adds to the damage potential.
you also say that you don’t condition it. How is it possible then to hit a target other than the throat unless you condition it to be able to strike a target with such force without being injured?
Some target areas (e.g. pit of throat, armpit) are able to be hit with a fair amount of force without significant conditioning to the spearhand due, in our school at least, to the structural formation of the spearhand. We don’t just extend the fingers and thumb, rather, the middle finger is bent somewhat to form a flat “blade” out of the tips of the index, middle, and ring fingers. Further, the wrist is bent slightly at impact, adding an angle to the point of impact so that it is around a 20 - 30 degree angle, as opposed to perpendicular to the striking surface, at impact. This allows for a greater ability of the striking hand to absorb some of the impact (if it hasn’t been conditioned).
A spearhand can’t cause greater penetrative damage if it is not able to withstand being used as a forcefull weapon. Just like I can’t throw punches harder than my wrist will allow(or it breaks)
This goes without saying. Which is why it is imperative to train every possible weapon your body can create, on the off chance of needing one of them…
Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it…
:XXknight:
There is a really amazing amount of discussion of spearhands in this thread. I’m no expert, but I have looked into spearhands a few times. My conclusion is that unless your hands are, for some reason, naturally suited to be conditioned into hideous, nerveless lumps of bone and tendon suitable for poking someone in the throat, just punch them for crying out loud.
Spearhands MAYBE against the throat of a controlled attacker or if you have a ridiculous amount of precision, but again, why not just punch or hammerfist (or even a knife hand, since we’re taking a little trip back in time here)?
To me, a spearhand is the crescent kick of hand techniques; flashy, maybe has minimal application if practiced to death, not worth learning.
I may be wrong but on this issue I doubt it.
I’ve used spearhands successfully in a couple of real life streetfights, if anybody would like to read the details. I also almost got my finger joints hyperextended trying that shit in TKD sparring. I’d say the spear has it’s place and time to shine, but it’s no cat’s ass of techniques.
Even if you condition your hands, there are superior techniques. As stated before, I tried this in a real world scenario (back when I was active in tkd, young and stupid kkthx) and nearly broke my fingers. If you want to try it, just try hitting a PILLOW with a spearhand using some force and see how you fare. GL not hurting your hand. The strike sucks, pure and simple.
Two guys, similar arts (both TKD), saying they have no luck with spearhands. That would lead me, at least initially, to think you’re doing them incorrectly.
Even without significant conditioning, I can spearhand a pillow, my couch, bags of rice (which are pretty “smushy” but offer some resistance), all with no problem. I used to be a massage therapist, too, so my hands aren’t deformed, either.
Yet again, I’ll say it’s one more tool in the box, one that admittedly has limited use, but is still a valid tool nonetheless. When I have time, later, I’ll take some digital photos of how we form our hands, and I’ll see what I can find in the house to spear into so I can show that it can be done… Not sure what I’ll find for that beyond my wife and kids, but I’ll look… :lookround