Okay experts explain to me why we don't see this at high level competition

Martial Arts Training Forums BJJ and Advanced Grappling Forum
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Alright, so I keep seeing “slick moves” on Facebook and they always get my spider sense tingling as to well if that is so cool why don’t we see it.
I would like this thread dedicated to more than the one I am sharing in this post, cause these things come up a lot.
So if you can a refute my premise as being false cool.
However if you can break down why these moves don’t work under world class pressure even better.
Don’t get me wrong these all seem like they would work against someone that you can already beat 1,000,000 other ways.

That being said lets all know I am on top of Mount Stupid when it comes to this shit.

Anyways up 1st check out this slick Toe Hold from side control to a frame that a lot of elite level competiors use(though I have also seen it chided)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4R_RMaXOoA&feature=youtu.be

Much thanks for your incites.

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None of this is arguing with you:
[QUOTE=Krampus;3059612]Toe holds work, [/QUOTE]
Well yeah, I have seen toe holds at high level, and I like seeing cool entries into them.
The two Lineages of BJJ schools I have been at(despite a history of being at a few) have been Lister Black Belts or Roy Harris Black Belts, both of which have Toe holds as a part of the curriculum.
Currently at a Roy Harris one.
But of course I am personally no freaking expert and don’t want to act like I think I know what I am talking about, just that I have been exposed to them.

[QUOTE=Krampus;3059612]
and work best when you have your opponent’s hip or far leg entangled so they cannot counter by counter rotation, extension, or inversion.
[/QUOTE]
So this is actually why my spider sense starts to tingle, some, is the ability to have sufficient control to keep the hip pinned to do the compression your talking about while they try and turn in on you.

[QUOTE=Krampus;3059612]Notice how demonstrating tori compromises his opponent’s hip in the video demonstration… [/QUOTE]
No, this is that invisible BJJ stuff that I like to see/here and get.
Thanks for pointing that out.

[QUOTE=Krampus;3059612]
Grab a toe hold from top cross body without that hip or far leg entanglement and you can get kicked off hard enough to pick up a concussion if you don’t let go before your forehead slams against the mat / floor.[/QUOTE]
The other thing I am wondering is if the tori, does builds the proper knee elbow framing while all this is going on, are you going to be able to come back in enough, to get the leverage to finish this move.

Anyways I really do thank you for the information.

3

If the frame gets “set” that is, the bottom players is able to manipulate the weight of the top player and the distance between them with that frame, then no, that toe-hold won’t work. Because you won’t be able to get that leg weave that compromises the far hip and then, as Dr G. said, you get kicked off rather violently as they recover guard.

This however, is the neat thing about this particular move that he DOESN’t really cover well in the video but I can see: With a bit of practice, you would be able to tell when it wasn’t going to work fairly early on and simply leg-drag them back to a regular side control.

That is what makes it a nice move for high level competition. You can detect if it is doomed BEFORE your opponent can take advantage of the fact that your attack will likely fail.
This allows a savvy competitor to error correct.

Overall, though, I agree with you about a lot of these “slick” moves. They tend to be fairly situational at best.

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Oh slick choke highlighted in:

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/heres-choke-guard-opponent-will-never-see-coming/?fbclid=IwAR1hbrWX7S1cU9NerlexZ5JKNvsmj-sgDZgpcazjpABr0b7dP3EI0G_AQno

https://youtu.be/SyX6ALdmyWI

So educate me.

My 1st crack it though, is um whom doesn’t just go right to bicep control if they find their arms in that position?
or more accurately a bunch of bad posture fighting.

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[QUOTE=goodlun;3059975]Oh slick choke highlighted in:

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/heres-choke-guard-opponent-will-never-see-coming/?fbclid=IwAR1hbrWX7S1cU9NerlexZ5JKNvsmj-sgDZgpcazjpABr0b7dP3EI0G_AQno

https://youtu.be/SyX6ALdmyWI

So educate me.

My 1st crack it though, is um whom doesn’t just go right to bicep control if they find their arms in that position?
or more accurately a bunch of bad posture fighting.[/QUOTE]

That was some amazingly bad posture.

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Apparently the guy is comfortable in bad posture, so it can work.

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Oh here is a fun one! Ironically One I actually use so I know “it works” yet I can only hit it on people whom are quit a bit newer than I.
Though I have never once rolled back with it, seems like a bad idea to give up position to get deeper into it?
Mike Bidwell seems to have a lot of these little slick moves, and of course I am in no position to say anything negative about them, but why don’t we see this more?
Its pretty quick to apply, it does seem to require a small let up in pressure as you transition, does seem to be where someone looking to turn in could ruin it for you…

https://www.watchbjj.com/technique/octopus-choke-mike-bidwell/?fbclid=IwAR3O1mF6ffEYMid1Fuz5Emc1HBWOmJ9nvvtt2Mpegc8dHwHqcybTy3FPQ7c

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[QUOTE=goodlun;3060140]Oh here is a fun one! Ironically One I actually use so I know “it works” yet I can only hit it on people whom are quit a bit newer than I.
Though I have never once rolled back with it, seems like a bad idea to give up position to get deeper into it?
Mike Bidwell seems to have a lot of these little slick moves, and of course I am in no position to say anything negative about them, but why don’t we see this more?
Its pretty quick to apply, it does seem to require a small let up in pressure as you transition, does seem to be where someone looking to turn in could ruin it for you…

https://www.watchbjj.com/technique/octopus-choke-mike-bidwell/?fbclid=IwAR3O1mF6ffEYMid1Fuz5Emc1HBWOmJ9nvvtt2Mpegc8dHwHqcybTy3FPQ7c[/QUOTE]

I like that. Never saw it before, but that doesn’t really mean anything.

As a judo guy I would end up in Kesa gatame. I was always trying to figure out ways to submit people from their other than the standard stuff.

I think he was kind of over exaggerating on the release to the transition.

Observation was that the better that you guys rolling better the control had to be for one of them to get a submission. Or come close.

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[QUOTE=BKR;3060141]I like that. Never saw it before, but that doesn’t really mean anything.

As a judo guy I would end up in Kesa gatame. I was always trying to figure out ways to submit people from their other than the standard stuff.

I think he was kind of over exaggerating on the release to the transition.

Observation was that the better that you guys rolling better the control had to be for one of them to get a submission. Or come close.[/QUOTE]

There is also an Arm Bar that goes along with this I will see if I can find someone doing it for you.

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Here it is your likely familiar with it but if you keep the arm nice and tight when going for that choke its easy(okay nothing is ever easy) to transition into this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxiBarS9mWo

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[QUOTE=goodlun;3060143]Here it is your likely familiar with it but if you keep the arm nice and tight when going for that choke its easy(okay nothing is ever easy) to transition into this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxiBarS9mWo[/QUOTE]

That one I would include in my previous remark.

In judo, a good KG will win match, so giving up position for that armbar is not common.

I took up Jiu-Jitsu at a fairly Advanced age I lost a lot of flexibility in my lower back. I could do when I was younger I was no longer available on that particular arm-lock was one of them.

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[QUOTE=BKR;3060812]
I took up Jiu-Jitsu at a fairly Advanced age I lost a lot of flexibility in my lower back. I could do when I was younger I was no longer available on that particular arm-lock was one of them.[/QUOTE]

Its understandable I know that one of the ways people that are less flexible get the choke from their is they have to clear that arm in order to get around.
I actually run into quite a bit of flexibility issues, anything with straight legs can be a problem for me. I can’t touch my toes not even close, in that position I can get down to like my knee(a tiny bit past) and a straight legged sit and reach bah humbug.
On the other side of the coin, I can butterfly sit like a champ, still do the lotus though I now need to grab the 2nd foot and place it up(use to be able to just go right into it), Pigeon pose with my head to the floor.
I am working on getting my lower back, and transverse abdominis into shape. Things like Super Mans oh barely do them and certainly not with any quality.
So one of the things I want to do is age proof “my game” so even though say Rubber guard is something I can do, I am thinking I want to work more towards using the Williams Guard as my high guard.
I also am at a “young” gym, I mean I am sure most gyms run young, but the owner of my Gym teaches the BJJ Recreation class at the University I work at(coincidence) it seems to be the biggest pipeline to new people to the gym.
Its always going to be a bit of a struggle, the gym I am at is .4 miles away from Clark Gracies school like its on the same street. Of course their are gosh knows how many other gyms around.
However back to my point, its hard to out attribute someone (something I know you know very well), so I am trying to be smart about things.

So kind of back to the point of this whole thread. I want to incorporate things into my game that are things that work at all levels.
I think it was Ryan Hall that got me to understand this. If an elite black belt can do it to another elite black belt, it will work at all levels.
To be careful about picking up things that work because its a black belt going up against a blue belt.
That isn’t to say that those filler techniques are not important if nothing more than to be aware of them.
A lot of time probably shouldn’t be spent on them.

While I pontificate, its not really “techniques” I am worried about but rather making good structure, breaking down structure, getting good wedges, keeping base, moving people to where they have no base, manipulating where my weight is so that I can keep pressure but be mobile, micro transitions and micro positions, getting and maintaining tempo, ect ect ect.
Techniques of course help, being in a position and holding someone down is great for many things, but being able to finish them in that position is even better.

13

The short answer to your initial question in the OP is this, the more fundamentals a technique has, the more likely it will work against all levels of practitioners. The more the “surprise factor” plays a part in the technique, the less likely it is to do so.

Roger Gracie cleaned house on the international competition circuit using chokes after attaining mount. An example of pure fundamentals working at the highest levels.

On a personal level, when Zapruder (RIP) and I were purple and brown belts, he was always coming up with crazy entries to various submissions. I’m big on the fundamentals. He once told me he knew if one of his entries worked on me consistently, he could use it against higher belts.

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[QUOTE=jnp;3060904]The short answer to your initial question in the OP is this, the more fundamentals a technique has, the more likely it will work against all levels of practitioners. The more the “surprise factor” plays a part in the technique, the less likely it is to do so.

Roger Gracie cleaned house on the international competition circuit using chokes after attaining mount. An example of pure fundamentals working at the highest levels.

On a personal level, when Zapruder (RIP) and I were purple and brown belts, he was always coming up with crazy entries to various submissions. I’m big on the fundamentals. He once told me he knew if one of his entries worked on me consistently, he could use it against higher belts.[/QUOTE]
Many black belts, including competitive black belts, make consistent bad strategic choices, and are remarkably flawed in their execution of many of the basic positions and opportunities.

They take sloppy risks with low pay off out of habit and without even noticing it.

By playing contrary models, that exploit that or those flaws in execution, one can often pick up submissions, or annoyances, or positional transitions, nearly for free.

On the other hand, the contrary model players get eaten alive when confronted with a player that does not make the sloppy and sometimes surprisingly popular flaws necessary to make the contrary models useful.

Or against a player that is well trained in the counter offense to the contrary model.

We see this often when athletes from one ruleset play against athletes from other rulesets.

They may bring in contrary models, such as a high level Judo player who is sly enough to hit a careless single leg attack against a folkstyle or freestyle wrestler,

knowing that the freestyle wrestler will almost always hit one of a few high percentage wrestling counters,

many of which gift wrap a superior entry into a dominant upper body clinch for the Judo man that is then perfect for no gi Judo throwing techniques.

This is inviting the alligator to bite off their own limbs with their own usually high percentage responses within the models they are accustomed to.

In this type of case, the contrary model player invites the highly skilled player in fundamentals to set themselves up with their own fundamentals, and their confidence in that model.

And in some cases, the contrary player will completely turn the underlying assumptions of the model with those fundamentals on their ear to do so.

15

[QUOTE=Krampus;3060917]Many black belts, including competitive black belts, make consistent bad strategic choices, and are remarkably flawed in their execution of many of the basic positions and opportunities.

They take sloppy risks with low pay off out of habit and without even noticing it.

By playing contrary models, that exploit that or those flaws in execution, one can often pick up submissions, or annoyances, or positional transitions, nearly for free.

On the other hand, the contrary model players get eaten alive when confronted with a player that does not make the sloppy and sometimes surprisingly popular flaws necessary to make the contrary models useful.

Or against a player that is well trained in the counter offense to the contrary model.

We see this often when athletes from one ruleset play against athletes from other rulesets.

They may bring in contrary models, such as a high level Judo player who is sly enough to hit a careless single leg attack against a folkstyle or freestyle wrestler,

knowing that the freestyle wrestler will almost always hit one of a few high percentage wrestling counters,

many of which gift wrap a superior entry into a dominant upper body clinch for the Judo man that is then perfect for no gi Judo throwing techniques.

This is inviting the alligator to bite off their own limbs with their own usually high percentage responses within the models they are accustomed to.

In this type of case, the contrary model player invites the highly skilled player in fundamentals to set themselves up with their own fundamentals, and their confidence in that model.

And in some cases, the contrary player will completely turn the underlying assumptions of the model with those fundamentals on their ear to do so.[/QUOTE]

To further explain, it is not just a question of “fundamentals”.

Every model has its own foundational assumptions, and own set of “fundamentals”.

Model selection and model transition recognition are also key, in addition to “fundamentals” of any model, including the more popular ones.

16

[QUOTE=Krampus;3060917]Many black belts, including competitive black belts, make consistent bad strategic choices, and are remarkably flawed in their execution of many of the basic positions and opportunities.

They take sloppy risks with low pay off out of habit and without even noticing it.

By playing contrary models, that exploit that or those flaws in execution, one can often pick up submissions, or annoyances, or positional transitions, nearly for free.

On the other hand, the contrary model players get eaten alive when confronted with a player that does not make the sloppy and sometimes surprisingly popular flaws necessary to make the contrary models useful.

Or against a player that is well trained in the counter offense to the contrary model.

We see this often when athletes from one ruleset play against athletes from other rulesets.

They may bring in contrary models, such as a high level Judo player who is sly enough to hit a careless single leg attack against a folkstyle or freestyle wrestler,

knowing that the freestyle wrestler will almost always hit one of a few high percentage wrestling counters,

many of which gift wrap an superior entry into a dominant upper body clinch for the Judo man that is then perfect for no gi Judo throwing techniques.

This is inviting the alligator to bite off their own limbs with their own usually high percentage responses within the models they are accustomed to.

In this type of case, the contrary model player invites the highly skilled player in fundamentals to set themselves up with their own fundamentals, and their confidence in that model.

And in some cases, the contrary player will completely turn the underlying assumptions of the model with those fundamentals on their ear to do so.[/QUOTE]

Great post

As ghost likes to say there are levels to this shit.

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[QUOTE=BKR;3060921]Great post

As ghost likes to say there are levels to this shit.[/QUOTE]

It gets really complicated even within one rule set.

That was why Travis Stevens kept blowing my mind at the Canadian training camp that I went to a few years ago.

He took up BJJ and did something similar to what you were describing.

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[QUOTE=BKR;3060924]It gets really complicated even within one rule set.

That was why Travis Stevens kept blowing my mind at the Canadian training camp that I went to a few years ago.

He took up BJJ and did something similar to what you were describing.[/QUOTE]
Another interesting cluster where we observe this phenomenon is with high level players that have built games to work around a serious, permanent injury, or physical disability.

In BJJ, Gordo popularized bottom half guard sweeps because he completely blew out his knee, and could no longer perform many conventional guards during a prolonged recovery.

To his and everyone’s else’s surprise, he managed to turn people over a lot while on the bottom half guard with a few simple moves.

Then, in wrestling, we see the case of Anthony Robles, born without a leg, but blessed with a lower weight class with significant upper body strength advantage compared to the other people in the weight class, and a perfected low shot single and tilt game.

The Great Koga blows out his shoulder and starts hitting a one armed Seoi that no one saw coming and before he proved it could be high percentage for him against high level players, most people in a vacuum would have said would be low percentage in high level Judo tournaments.

We were born to adapt, to redefine the rules of our environment, or to die.

19

[QUOTE=Krampus;3060926]Another interesting cluster where we observe this phenomenon is with high level players that have built games to work around a serious, permanent injury, or physical disability.

In BJJ, Gordo popularized bottom half guard sweeps because he completely blew out his knee, and could no longer perform many conventional guards during a prolonged recovery.

To his and everyone’s else’s surprise, he managed to turn people over a lot while on the bottom half guard with a few simple moves.

Then, in wrestling, we see the case of Anthony Robles, born without a leg, but blessed with a lower weight class with significant upper body strength advantage compared to the other people in the weight class, and a perfected low shot single and tilt game.

The Great Koga blows out his shoulder and starts hitting a one armed Seoi that no one saw coming and before he proved it could be high percentage for him against high level players, most people in a vacuum would have said would be low percentage in high level Judo tournaments.

We were born to adapt, to redefine the rules of our environment, or to die.[/QUOTE]

Yes…
Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki blew out his elbow…

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[QUOTE=Krampus;3060917]Many black belts, including competitive black belts, make consistent bad strategic choices, and are remarkably flawed in their execution of many of the basic positions and opportunities.

They take sloppy risks with low pay off out of habit and without even noticing it.

By playing contrary models, that exploit that or those flaws in execution, one can often pick up submissions, or annoyances, or positional transitions, nearly for free.

On the other hand, the contrary model players get eaten alive when confronted with a player that does not make the sloppy and sometimes surprisingly popular flaws necessary to make the contrary models useful.

Or against a player that is well trained in the counter offense to the contrary model.

We see this often when athletes from one ruleset play against athletes from other rulesets.

They may bring in contrary models, such as a high level Judo player who is sly enough to hit a careless single leg attack against a folkstyle or freestyle wrestler,

knowing that the freestyle wrestler will almost always hit one of a few high percentage wrestling counters,

many of which gift wrap a superior entry into a dominant upper body clinch for the Judo man that is then perfect for no gi Judo throwing techniques.

This is inviting the alligator to bite off their own limbs with their own usually high percentage responses within the models they are accustomed to.

In this type of case, the contrary model player invites the highly skilled player in fundamentals to set themselves up with their own fundamentals, and their confidence in that model.

And in some cases, the contrary player will completely turn the underlying assumptions of the model with those fundamentals on their ear to do so.[/QUOTE]

Alright though, I know you have an internet presence and that your on a lot of the same BJJ blogs I am on and you see a lot of the same videos I see.
I know your a very experienced and are fairly open minded and aren’t likely to just Poo poo something.
and I know I am not, I want to be clear I know, I know, I know, I am on the top of Mt Stupid, and I know even worrying about this sort of stuff other than just focusing in on getting better is mental masturbation.

But I can’t help but think their has to be videos you see where you go, yep that guy is a black belt he is skilled but that guy, that guy only has white and blue belts in his academy, and that technique he is teaching hasn’t been properly vetted.