My McDojo's "Point of No Return"

Classic Forums Old School: Bullshido Classics and Mega Threads
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This is a long one…bear with me please…my questions are at the end. It’ll probably make some of you laugh/cry for me.

Last Tuesday (Feb 8, 2005), two things happened that I somehow believed never would occur…although in retrospect I realise were inevitable.

  1. I walked out of a class.

  2. I realized that my dojo is beyond repair as a serious school.

My Sensei has recently been very busy with other aspects of his life and hasn’t been around as much to teach. Fair enough, I don’t begrudge him the need to support his 3 daughters and wife. He seems to do well enough for himself, so kudos to him for that.

Unfortunately, his absence has extensively affected the quality of instruction at the dojo. There is no clear leadership, nobody has real authority, and everyone wants to teach different things in the classes they choose to cover. The Aiki-JuJutsu / JuJutsu class is the only one of the three Arts that has a decent regular teacher anymore. (The other two are KF, which has always been a joke, and Goju Ryu which is excellent when being taught well, but has fallen to the wayside recently.) On this fateful Tuesday, the regular AJJ/JJ teacher was out of town, so my Sensei chose to take the class himself. He’s an 8th Dan in his Jitsu art (Shindo-Ryu JuJutsu under the late Shintani-Sensei) and a very nasty grappler when he wants to be. He’s getting older (mid 50s) so he doesn’t get into the jutsu as often anymore.

I should’ve known there were problems the minute I walked into the building. He greeted me enthusiastically…in his gi and red-and-white belt (Master’s Belt, he usually only wears it for seminars). I’ve had a rough time the last couple of weeks and I’d come in just to work out and hit bags and work off the steam…and told him as much. “Come into Jujutsu! I’m teaching it tonight, you’ll want to learn this!” He knows my preference for grappling, so I agreed to join.

I haven’t been in a JJ class there in almost 2 years now…I wore my old Green rank. I noticed a few things:

  1. Everyone was either ranked Black, Brown, Yellow or White. Huh?!?!

  2. There were WAY too many people in the class to be able to comfortably perform throws or roll very far.

  3. There were a LOT of non-gi wearing people…and a few in their KF uniforms (which runs at the same time in the hardwood dojo).

My heart started to sink…he had combined the two classes together and had at least 3 “trial” students (read: potential membership fees) in the room. That explained the Master’s belt.

Then the “warm-up” began. I need those quotation marks there, because without them it would suggest I actually at least broke a sweat. The warm-up consisted of the following:

  1. Shaking out limbs

  2. A series of one-armed push-ups done in groups…each group forming up next to their partners and the entire group trying to lift themselves off the ground. While he was counting this, he was crowing about how the group that gave up first would have to do extra pushups later. He sounded like a beligerent cheerleader rather than a Sensei barking orders.

  3. Partnering up and doing 10 pushup over-unders (leap-frog over and then scramble back under through the legs, doing three pushups and then repeating). My partner ended up being some fat, soft, teenage kungfu kid who gassed after 5, whined about my fingers “digging into” his back during the leapfrogs, and asked “Is That 10?” after EVERY CYCLE following his 5th!

Apparently from there we were sufficiently warm to start transition drills for hip-throws. Not just any entry or transition, but the actual reversal of the hip-throw! We weren’t to throw, just to the “lift”. Alright…I hate hip throw and any other of those “turn your back” type throws…but I was game to try with my noob partner. They showed the technique 3 times. No explanation, no footwork breakdown. “Go until I say stop!” ummm…ok. Except my partner doesn’t know how to hip throw (legs were spread so wide you’d think he was Paris Hilton!), doesn’t know how to transition (kept kicking my knee as he passed me) and KEPT WHINING AT ME TO “WATCH MY KNEES!” He also kept going “whoa” when I started to lift him and would squirm, but jerked me around and actually accidentally dropped me at one point. I asked why he was even there if he couldn’t handle being lifted or the techniques and he said “I don’t want to be here, I was forced to be here, I do kung fu.” I was at the point I was actually going to THROW him just to prove a point (he’d have probably quit the dojo right then and there…GRIN) Unfortunately, I’m not into hurting soft, fat kiddies so I just asked one of the blackbelts to work him into another group for me and moved to the back of the class. I still wasn’t sweating, I was now pissed off, it was about half an hour into the class, and we were doing bullshit “basics” with no apparent build-up to a grappling game.

I moved to the back of the class and waited for the next technique.

“Ok, we’re going to work from an attempted one-handed lapel grab to break grip and distract/interrupt.”

Sure, it’s basic, but it does lead to a variety of decent throws/controls…I’m cool with that so far.

“Step to the inside into cat-stance (neko ashi dachi), sweep the arm down, around and out of the way with your outside arm while striking open-palm up under the chin with your right.”

…WHAT!?!

I couldn’t believe it. He was now placating the Kung Fu students who had been forced to be there! I couldn’t handle it anymore, I didn’t care if the rest of the class suddenly was the Best Class Ever Taught (which would’ve been a COMPLETE 180, which wasn’t likely). I waited until he instructed people to partner up and practice the technique, moved to the exit, bowed out, and left to go change into my gym duds and work out during my precious little time left.

In the changeroom, one of the seniors came in “to check on me.” (I found out later he was TOLD to find me when Sensei realized I wasn’t around. I guess he planned to use me as uke for the class. I guess he likes using bigger people in front of new students for the impression it makes.) I was asked what was wrong, if I was hurt, why did I leave class?

“I didn’t come here to do an hour and a half of hip throw and cat stances. I’m going to work out.”

He silently stared at me for a second, obviously not expecting THAT answer, nodded and left. I went to the weight room to work out.

5 minutes later, Sensei shows up in the gym and tears into me (verbally). Ranted about disrespecting him and how what I did was simply inexcusable. (I conceded that I was in the wrong to simply leave his class without permission. You just don’t do that in someone’s school, and apologized. It was a tense apology, my blood was boiling over the Bullshido I’d just witnessed, but it was sincere.) Told me he was disappointed in me and walked out. I would’ve been ok with that except he turned around and told me that if I “pulled shit like that again, [he’ll] have me thrown out of the dojo.” Probably just words spoken in anger and for effect…but my first reaction was “BY WHO???” That’s when I realized the sad truth that there’s only a handful of people who could cause me to break a sweat in the dojo, and none of them were stupid enough to obey blindly and touch me on someone else’s say-so.

So now I’m faced with a problem. I recognize the absurdity of paying a place where I actively disdain the classes. However, the weights and bagroom are by far the best in the area and my blackbelt status there allows me to train basically whenever I want, so it flexs around my schedule. My MT and the potential grappling gym I’m looking are only open for a few hours during classes and have limited bag availablity/open time. They’re basic, ghetto, but hard-training places. I can’t afford them all, financially or time-wise.

My membership is up for renewal at the dojo. Blackbelts pay a flat yearly $550 (CAD, approx. $450 USD at current exchange rate) for full access. The other places cost $600-$800, which is definitely wortwhile on their own. I don’t have $2000 to spend on memberships.

I’m not asking for people’s opinions on what I should do…only I will decide this.

What I AM asking for are stories of when others had their “final straw” moment? What was it like to finally walk away from your first dojo? Was it under good or bad terms? If similar to mine, how did you handle it? Because no matter how much I rationally know that I must leave one day, there’s a definite intangible hesitancy to finally close the door on “my first”.

Thoughts?

2

Why I left:

My First club:

Shotokan Club:

  1. Started taking TKD to improve my kicks - mentioned it to one of the Brown Belts - he said, I’ve noticed your kicks getting much better in a short space ot time…don’t let shihan find out…he doesn’t like people training in other styles because he thinks it will confuse them.
  2. When Black Belt grading time came around, same brown belt didn’t test but 4 other people who were nowhere near as good as him tested and got their BBs. when I asked him about this he said he wasn’t good enough to wear a BB yet.
  3. When it came time for me to grade for my green belt my shihan wouldn’t give me a yes or no when I asked if I was grading…all he said was “we’ll have to see how your attendance is”. Attendance as a grading requirement is bs
  4. Told the friend who had got me interested in MA that he should come to class more often, when he said he had to work evenings (we were in high school) he was told that he was a teenager and he didn’t need to work…apparently earning money for university isn’t important.
    So I quit shotokan and went ITF TKD

ITF TKD: Good school, hard sparring…I got suspicious when my teacher wanted me to go from blue to black in 6 months…just in time for me to go to university and open my own school under him…riiiiiight. At first I was excited and bought into it…having a BB in TKD and Hapkido sounded awesome…then when reality hit me I told him I didn’t want to grade because I wasn’t a good enough fighter and because I was nowhere near good enough to be a BB in hapkido…I couldn’t grapple for shit…he insisted I test…I said no…he got pissed I stopped training with him.

WTF TKD at University: Everyone’s hands were at their sides sparring…I could kick them in the head before they could move their hands…yet they were all blue/brown belts…so they should have been at my skill level or higher and I know I wasn’t THAT fast…kept getting yelled at by the teacher any time I threw a punch to the head because it was against the rules…finally got pissed…asked her if that work on the street when I guy hit me in the face and walked out.

JuJitsu at University: Taught to slap the guy grabbing me to loosen his grip…the reason I was given was that we don’t want to use excessive force and get charged with assault. Sorry, if some 250lb monster grabs me a slap isn’t going to make him loosen his grip so I can break free…at best he’ll laugh at me, at worst he’ll get even more pissed and pummel my ass.

Taught to axe kick a guy on the ground. I ask, wouldn’t a stomp do more damage and eliminate the risk to my knee from axe kicking a guy lying on his back? The response “you’re only doing hard enough to wind him…you don’t want to injure the other guy”. erm, some fucker attacks me and I don’t want to injure him? I wanna put him down hard and make sure I don’t get my face fucked up!! If he gets hurt…tough shit!

Taught some lame move where we have the guy on the ground…put his elbow between your knees and drop to the ground to shatter his elbow. I say “won’t that hurt your knees?” The response: Well you squeeze your knees against his arms so that will break your fall (wtf!!!)

Wado Kai at University: Teacher thought it would be a good idea to each inside forarm block (Uchi uke) by telling us it’s like scooping ice cream and making us yell “Ice cream scoop” as we did the block…sorry doing that when you’re 2 might be fun…but not at 22!

I’ve left my fair share of clubs…always sucks to leave the people you like behind but you’ve gotta do what’s best for you. Not all of them were pure McDojo but all had some element of McDojoism to them.

3

As much as it shames me to admit it, I was prey to exactly similar (though predictable) bullshido which pushed me over the edge while I was doing TKD(ITF). Originally, I thought this shit was awesome - we did sparring in the first class I went to and the instructor at the time seemed to know what he was on about. As time passed though, head instructor closes the gym due to high rent/low student numbers and passes instruction over to some lower ranked black belts. Training rapidly degenerated into a load of bullshit patterns for 2 hours or useless drills with kids that were basically pathetic. It got to the point where I would dread going, and I was given a good excuse to do something else when I moved cities. 1st post :icon_salu

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I had a really good TKD teacher when I was a child/teenager. A short while after getting my BB he was killed in a accident while driving home. His assistant (who was a 2nd or 3rd degree BB) took up his class but I stoped going because I found him too soft (my teacher was really hard on us, pushing our limits with endurance training and sparing, this guy was more about no touch point sparing, and getting younger kids and familys into the class). I took a year off when I moved about 100 miles away for work. Finally, i start looking and end up in this old korean guys school. He talks the talk and his class looked strict (although it was a forms class and not sparing which should of throw a flag that he didn’t invite me to see a sparing class). They also taught hopkido and gumdo. I thought the idea of grappling would be something I was really interested in, but he said to take hopkido you also had to take TKD. He also wanted me to come in as a white belt and said I could quickly test up to my level if I was good enough (another flag). So I suckered up and signed the contract for a year. Went to a few classes and found out it was crap. He wouldn’t let me attend the hopkido until I was a higher belt, and his tkd classes where WTF style (this was the first time I had ever seen WTF tkd). So basically it was not my TKD, it wasn’t anything I had seen as TKD. I was disillusioned. I went to a few more schools but all I could find was ATA schools and they were more of the same (light sparing, very young instructors or very fat high belted guys with limited range of movements). After seeing black belts who couldn’t kick or punch, and a few other things I just quit.

I didn’t even keep going during my contact, I just stopped and threw the cash away. It took me almost 2 years to get back into martial arts. I ended up going to a friends krav maga class. I had a blast with the speed of it and the freedom in sparing. A little grappling, a lot of endurance work with punching, kicking, knees, elbows etc. Tons of work with a partner and pads. And of course a good 1-2 hours a week of sparing. But the teacher was ‘new’ to krav maga and he quickly ran out of steam. I started to see techniques I didn’t like, or just plain knew wouldn’t work (and proved with some sparing on my own time). And I felt like I learned all he had to teach. I later found out he was an ATA TKD teacher doing a krav maga class on the side. The upside to that was the sparing was very good with lots of contact. I frequently went home feeling beaten and tired (in a good way).

So again, I was disillusioned and took the summer off martial arts looking for some inspriation. I felt I needed to re-address what I wanted from martial arts. Did I want to be a sport figther? Well at my age most sport fighters are all ready established, so thats out. Self defense? I feel I have some skills to handle myself if I need too. Personal growth? I could use that, stress release, focus, etc. Scholar interest? Yes, I think that is a major driving factor.

So I came up with my new goal. I decided I wanted to try all the arts I can. So firsts on the block was aikido. I found a local small school. I went there with an open mind and the teacher there really impressed me. He demostrated some great locks and throws on me and even answered my questions about all the what ifs. He allowed me to ‘come at’ him in a friendly sparing sort of way and was very impressive. We didn’t fight, but I dont think we needed too. This guy is one of the most impressive martial artists I’ve ever met.

He teachers a blend of styles from his exp. He had a wide range from judo, aikido, and jujutsu. We mainly focus on aikido, but ever now and then we will drill how to put a strike here or take this technique from the non violent to the violent (take this into the jujutsu realm, or add a strike, etc). And the technique works. We train in a varying resistive enviroment (resitsance gets stronger as skill increases). Its a very small class (under 10 people) and its almost free in comparison to other schools. I’ve never been more focused or more excited about anything.

I still plan on my original goal of trying all the arts I can, but I think aikido will always be part of my training. I love this place and I dont think i’m ever going to leave. I’ll just supliment it with other schools that I want to try. Currently I’ve been looking at a KK school, a judo class at the Y, and a BJJ/MMA gym down town.

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This is such a good thread , thanks to everybody sharing!

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I used to train at a really traditional Shotokan school. They trained hard, but most of their training methods were things like Kata, semi-free sparring, etc. There were some good things that offset a lot of the traditionalist b.s.: tough cardio conditioning, bag work, and they were moving into more hardcore sparring for the blackbelts. Well, time came around for me to test for my second degree blackbelt. The head honcho has us doing a few sets of basics up and down the floor when suddenly he stops and says “You’re too slow, show me that you want it. Give it everything you have.” So we all crank it up as far as it can go. We get done with everything, after I took a nice rib shot (some hard sparring again finally), and no one passes. Guess what the reason for me not passing was? I was going too hard and some of my techniques weren’t as controlled as they should be. Hmmm, I’m told to show that I want it and to give everything I have, then I’m criticized for going too hard. Strike 1, actually count that as strike 2 as well, it pissed me off pretty bad.

Afterwards, they said there were just a few things I needed to fix and that I could retest in 2-3 weeks, but I was moving out of state for school the next week. I did visit the last time I was in town. Turns out this old guy who once taught a class in which he spent 5 minutes explaining the right way to bow, got his second degree. The little zen opening ceremony at the beginning of the class was a nice reminder of how much time I wasted buying into all the bullshit hook line and sinker. Strike 3. I do BJJ now and just hope that someday I get the chance to take some of my old colleagues to the mat and show them there is more to learn than just how far the rising block should be from your head.

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I left my old school because my new school has some rotties.

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All Isshin-ryu is not created equal.

I had an epiphany about 12 years ago. I had been studying Isshin-ryu Karate for about 15 years at a karate school that was fairly well respected in our area. I also ran my own dojo in a city about 15 miles away. However, I had grown increasingly disillusioned with tournament karate and self-defense techniques that in no way resembled the movements from the kata I was learning. I was ready to quit.

Then in 1994, I became re-aquainted with a karate instructor from Carson, Iowa that I had met a few times before named Sherman Harrill. Sensei Harrill was giving a seminar on kata bunkai near Waterford, Michigan. He mostly covered Naihanchi kata. It blew me entirely away. At that seminar I realized that after 15 years of training, I knew absolutely nothing about karate. In 1995, I hosted my first in a series of seminars with Sensei Sherman Harrill and took off from there. I was still a member of this other dojo at this time. However, at a rank testing, I was told to change how I was then performing a kata movement back to “their way of doing it.” I could not do that, because their way of doing it was wrong…not just different…but wrong. Wrong because it ignored correct body mechanics. I never looked back.

I was accepted as a student by Sensei Harrill a short time later. Isshin-ryu Karate became a brave new world for me. It was sometimes painful for me to have to unlearn old habits, change my understanding and focus, and correct years of improperly performed techniques and kata movements. However, my karate has developed to a whole new level of understanding. It is fascinating to me that you can understand so much, but still know so little. I have so far to go. Thanks to my Sensei, I have a new appreciation for “real” Isshin-ryu Karate-do. I have only begun to comprehend the level of Sensei Harrill’s skill and abilities. It is actually scary. I wish I had more time. Unfortunately, Sensei Harrill passed away in 2002. I will have to do the best I can with what he gave me and continue to work with some of his other senior students to add to my understanding.

It is really unfortunate that so many students of Isshin-ryu Karate’s founder, Tatsuo Shimabuku, continue in their ceaseless efforts to make Isshin-ryu Karate the laughing stock of the karate world. With an ever increasing over-abundence of high ranking Isshin-ryu “karate masters” who can barely stumble through a kata, it is with mixed emotions that I embrace my chosen art. True Isshin-ryu Karate is a dynamic, deadly, efficient fighting art. What passes for Isshin-ryu Karate in most dojos across this nation is only good for beating up drunks.

Thank you, Sensei, for showing me they way!

Kanpai Sensei!

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It doesn’t matter if Isshin-ryu is the laughing stock of the karate world when Karate is the laughing stock of the martial arts world.

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I’ve never left a school but on a similar note, I went to a BJJ place for about 2 weeks to try it out. I liked it very much and the instuctor was a BB trained by Renzo Gracie. But the problem was they wanted me to sign up for a full 1 year contract, once you sign up thats it, I dont remember how much it was but it was a big lump of money to join, so I left.

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Seriously now…

Oh boy! Thats special. Must be a real thoughtful intelligent person to impart such profound words of wisdom. Your instructor must be so proud!

I will grant that because of sports karate, commercialism, and the American propensity for fast food, many karate schools in this country are not worth spit. However, do not be fooled into thinking that there are no “real” karate dojos out there, quietly operating in the background, more concerned with developing their skill than making a quick buck or winning a plastic trophy.

Anyone interested in a serious discussion, or is this just a name calling group.

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Yes, we know you have Teh R34l Isshin.

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First let me offer you th3 advice I was offered when I first started posting Darren. Keep it short unless you have something worthwhile to say. Second, judging by your last post you are talking about all these low key skewls opertaing in the background practicing the ‘r3al krotty’. You better be careful next thing you know you’ll be claiming u have secret knowledge handed down from ninja masters in some cave (see GI Joe issue 86?). So lets move on and except that you r new and we will tolerate your quest for intellectual conversation only so far. And as for your question about “is this a place just to call ppl names?” Of course not asshead. :new_321:

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The problem is that 90% of karate and tkd out there is utter crap. I’ve trained in good places and I’ve trained in crap places. When I first tried my hand at contact fighting (in a tkd school - GASP!) back in the late 90’s I realized that a lot of what I had learned was bullshit. My tkd teacher did forms, and we did those fancy jumping spinning kicks. He also made sure we knew what was for fights and what was for show. As evidenced by the time I was fighting him, tried a jumping spinning heel kick. He charged in, grabbed me, slammed me in the tile floor and while I lay there in considerable pain he told me never to try that fancy shit in a fight again. He then went on to tell me that moves like that were not for fighting. The only purpose they have was to impress chicks and strengthen the body. He still taught us those moves…but he made sure we knew they wern’t to be tried in a fight.

Sadly most karate and tkd teachers don’t make that distinction hence why most of the dojos you will walk into are garbage. Hence why most people on here will tell you that karate and tkd are crap. They are right. It’s sad but true. It’s not the styles, it’s the way they are taught and trained.

I love doing kata, it’s relaxing and good for overall fitness. But it’s nothing more than dancing for boys. Anyone who tells you otherwise is full of shit.

Don’t expect anyone to respect your style of karate when 90% of karate schools teach worthless bullshit. Unless you’re doing hard contact fighting, and learning takedowns/ground work you’re missing out on a lot of the tools you need to defend yourself.

Until the average karate school becomes a place where you learn real seff defence the average bullshidoka will say karate sucks donkey balls. You can either accept that fact and prove them wrong by showing up to a throwdown or you can continue to get your knickers in a twist and bitch about the fact that you’re not getting respect on these boards. I hope you choose option #1 because people don’t have patience for option #2.

P.S. No I havn’t been to a throwdown. But before you harp on me for that I was supposed to be at the last Toronto TD…got there late and the venue had changed. Had no way of getting in touch with anyone to find out where it was. Plus I don’t claim to have th3 r3al shotokan, or any real fighting skills in general. In fact these days I kinda suck ass.

P.P.S. No I don’t have stats to back up my percentages…that’s just my way of saying “the vast majority”. So don’t fucking get bent out of shape by the numbers. You know the point I’m getting at.

P.P.P.S Welcome to Bullshido

15

I remember my first time sparring, after a month or so of TKD.

“How do I block? Like the way we practice? demonstrates front down block”

“No, of course not. Just try and not get hit.”

“blown away But… why did we learn them?”

I was a dumb little fucker.

16

I hear that shit.
I started a fight with a guy I didn’t like after one year of taekwondo. I thought I could fight.
I was wrong.

17

I’m picturing you backing up while throwing grazing up-roundkicks until you quickly fall over. Am I right?

18

My teacher forced me to appologize to a guy who was ranked above me simply because I had “hit him too hard”.
If he didn’t want to get hit, why was he in a striking martial art?

19

I always apologise for hitting someone too hard, and while I’m apologizing, my other hand is on it’s way. It’s important to keep your actions and your words seperate.

20

Isn’t this some bullshit. I got in trouble for sparring to hard. We were told it was our fault if we hit someone and they didn’t block the strike. This was BB class people supposedly with skill. Eventually, they backed off after I raised some hell.

Then I was called a brawler that had no skill.