Martial Arts Forms their true purpose?

Ballroom dancing is more likely to get you laid. Latin dance even more so.

The guy with the tied up cat analogy a number of pages back had a great insight to share.

Forms are the culture of your martial practice. I view them as a cultural practice and dont worry about whether I would be ‘simultaneously punching two people while kicking another’ in a real fight. Physical coordination and body mechanics? Sure, why not. I can agree to that.

Have you seen ‘Strictly Ballroom?’ Greatest martial arts movie, bar none.

One thing for sure: you dont get black belts from most arts unless you can perform their specific cultural dances.

The number of forms and their complexity or difficulty do not lend well as to whether someone can fight in a specific venue.

To the OP: The only purpose of a kata is to preserve a syllabus for a school. More specifically, it often simply preserved the ego signature of a particular teacher as relates to advertising their school.

Hope that amused someone,

Rabu

[quote=Dargentus;2408773]Of course you could.

Tori swings left hook;

Uke blocks left hook with book;

Counters with papercut!!!

(actually this counter is hidden in Taikyoku Sono Ich):
‘If done correctly…noooo defense’

And Helmutlvx;

I use nekowashi dachi all the time walking down the street. It’s the only was to travel.

And as a karateka I refuse to take this thread seriously.

deadhorse:deadhorse[/quote]

Go to Utube and search Ronald Duncan improve weaponry.

As a Karateka you have been a victim. Karate has attributes which have slowly been destroyed that make it a great fighting art when trained properly. A good deal of the problem is a misunderstandign regarding the role and way kata should be used in training.

There are very few karate teachers who know how to properly apply the art to fighting. The first big fuck up was to create kick boxing and mix the body dynamics up with karate.

Anyhow the blissful sleep of ignorance might well be what you prefer and if it is that is sad but acceptable… It is alais also regrettable.

I agree with everything you just said and it is what I have been trying to unsuccessfully say this whole time LOL.

“If you were to try to individually take each of these elements:the footwork, the technique, the subtlities, the variations… do you think you could do a better job convying them than a form? thats my point”

I think you possibly could but you would have to make sure that is transmitted properly to each successive generation of teachers. Saying that you would have to make sure that everything stayed the same as it was in the Kata for example I have learned harai goshi with drills but have got a whole new depth on it after doing Nage no Kata. If you are going to just take apart the Kata as it is into slices why not just do the Kata?.

[quote=speedycerviche;2408800]I agree with everything you just said and it is what I have been trying to unsuccessfully say this whole time LOL.

“If you were to try to individually take each of these elements:the footwork, the technique, the subtlities, the variations… do you think you could do a better job convying them than a form? thats my point”

I think you possibly could but you would have to make sure that is transmitted properly to each successive generation of teachers. Saying that you would have to make sure that everything stayed the same as it was in the Kata for example I have learned harai goshi with drills but have got a whole new depth on it after doing Nage no Kata. If you are going to just take apart the Kata as it is into slices why not just do the Kata?.[/quote]

Thats my point in a nutshell.

Now I was hoping to be able to address the next big issue which is when people who do not understand forms then teach and come up with two big fuck ups:

a) they just decide that forms are a total waste of time to work with

b) they teach the forms literally as in “the kata will show you how to fight, just imitate it.”

These misperceptions have destroyed what is in essence a very efficient method of conveying information to students about the art totally and conveniently.

"Now I was hoping to be able to address the next big issue which is when people who do not understand forms then teach and come up with two big fuck ups:

a) they just decide that forms are a total waste of time to work with

b) they teach the forms literally as in “the kata will show you how to fight, just imitate it.”

These misperceptions have destroyed what is in essence a very efficient method of conveying information to students about the art totally and conveniently."

Very true in most cases what do you think can be done about it?.

Ok shite now since you’ve addressed me directly…

[QUOTE=Dsimon3387;2408799]Go to Utube and search Ronald Duncan improve weaponry.
[/QUOTE]
I will to be sure.
And I’ll get back to you.

[QUOTE=Dsimon3387;2408799]As a Karateka you have been a victim. Karate has attributes which have slowly been destroyed that make it a great fighting art when trained properly. A good deal of the problem is a misunderstandign regarding the role and way kata should be used in training.
[/QUOTE]

In this actually we can agree also but probably on different grounds. But I really do feel that a lot of karate is not being trained properly.

[QUOTE=Dsimon3387;2408799]There are very few karate teachers who know how to properly apply the art to fighting. [/QUOTE]

And that is why my friend, I feel that this thread is a dead horse. Too many of those you refer to are going to agree with you and thus help negate half the points you are trying to make.

[QUOTE=Dsimon3387;2408799]
The first big fuck up was to create kick boxing and mix the body dynamics up with karate. [/QUOTE]

I also happen to think that kickboxing (not K1) is an enormous pile of wank.

[QUOTE=Dsimon3387;2408799]
Anyhow the blissful sleep of ignorance might well be what you prefer and if it is that is sad but acceptable… It is alais also regrettable.[/QUOTE]

I like my ignorance…it goes before me wherever i go. Otherwise I’d be late for all my appointments.

I think I know where you’re going here. And I cautiously agree but i still feel that the thread is a bit pointless and has already been done.

Looking and studying Kata in such a way that the individual subtle philosophical precepts and strategies that they can bring to the art of fighting is indeed an incredibly rewarding and useful tool for the advanced and experienced student.

Note the word ‘advanced’ and ‘experienced’.

They have to be felt.
No Teacher can bring that.
Horse/water/drink.

Therefore;
The only people who can actually understand you are the people who have already came to this conclusion (preaching to choir)or who think they have (and are douchebags).

[quote=speedycerviche;2408803]"Now I was hoping to be able to address the next big issue which is when people who do not understand forms then teach and come up with two big fuck ups:

a) they just decide that forms are a total waste of time to work with

b) they teach the forms literally as in “the kata will show you how to fight, just imitate it.”

These misperceptions have destroyed what is in essence a very efficient method of conveying information to students about the art totally and conveniently."

Very true in most cases what do you think can be done about it?.[/quote]

People want to hold on to their hate more than they are willing to look at this issue with clear comprehension. Its a shame really.

here is what I will do about it tonight though:

When I teach my class we will be working on some Koppo applications, some of these are what people consider a block. Now if you look at a karate kata sequence it is obvious that the footwork and angle for that technique are missing. You guys are quite right that trying to block in the manner literally observed as such in the katas is wrong. But is that what is really going on?

So what do the kata’s reveal? they reveal that the type of blocking done should be done at a very different distance than what is taught and for a different purpose really. When Funokashi said every block should break could it be that he meant something that has been lost in how people interpret forms and the blocking applications that people assume are such in the katas?

If you put one stance length between you and the opponent as the opponent delivers his attack things change dramatically: first off you have so much distance by stepping back that your block has become an attack on his limb. Instead of tryng to beat his technique and risking a punch or kick to the head you are attacking his attacking limb. At this point if you use a body angle suitable for a 45 degree angle of attack you can hit his attacking limb very hard and not hurt your arm.

Why isn’t this taught as part of the kata? well first of all tai sabaki (body angling) changes from one person to another… Its the same reason hatsumi does not ever teach Tai Sabaki but used it is virtually every technique he does! A long arm swede and a stocky Puerto Rican from the Bronx will have to angle differently based on the difference in their body types. So you take the footwork and the timing and the strategy for the supposed block out of the kata and let people find the proper body placement for a 45 degree angle of attack on the attacking limb.

This is an example of how I use kata. I subscribe to the theory that I can make change happen in my backyard if nothing else.

Now: People will probably ask “how do you know this Darrell? who are yu to take this stuff and work with it?”

This is why I wanted Helmux to come back here and report… I only was part of one of the premiere fighting clubs in the washington Balto area. Through putting on the gloves you learn what works and how to train stuff so you can use it. I know from experience that if you step back and use a slightly smaller rotational movement on a high block for example, you can catch his arm in the space you stepped out of as you step out. And if you change the angle of that blocking movement it has deflection properties which allow one to enter with a strike or grapple.

My point in giving this example is that if you know what to look for in the kata… the information is there and what is not in the kata has a good reason for not being in the kata. Things that are relative to body type cannot be in a universal set of applications, the teacher has to do that part. But people misunderstanding the timing of a blocking movement comes from a lack of fighting experience and the resignated attitude that the kata is lacking haha.

I would recommend that any karate guys here try this out if you do not believe me. Instead of a big movement and trying to clear his fist out of your face with a block, step back as he punches and emphasize the rotaional movement of the block which has become a strike… and catch him at a 45 degree angle with a boney side of your arm… your footwork should clear you of the punch while you do this… Different Bunkai huh?

Hope this example helps

No. The best martial artist is the one who eliminates techniques that do not work or is exceedingly inefficient, and develops and perfects the ones that work well for his body type and style. If it means getting rid of Katas period then be it so. A lot of schools have. Furthermore, if it means losing the identity of the particular martial art and releasing the confines and letting the art adapt continuously, then further let it be so. A lot of schools have become this way. Some for better, more for worse. But the ones that changed for better carry on martial arts in its true meaning.

I have this theory that Kung Fu and Karate used to be a lot more dynamic and innovations were plentiful, when fighting was real and how good your school, country, etc was at it had real social, military and economic consequences. Today, the traditional arts seem to have taken on a hermit state while sport fighting replaced the dynamic nature of TMA. And the way Katas are emphasized today really shows this.

The thing I learned from this thread is that Kata is a great tool to preserve the martial art. There needs to be a seperate curriculum to use the preserved tools of the trade and apply it into real fighting. However, with video recording technology is may be mostly moot, although I do concede Katas will always have a real, functional place in martial arts.

Still, it is being used as part of a bad cycle of maintaining archaic inefficiencies in the martial arts world of today. Other examples include rulesets developed to “preserve” the style (i.e. point sparring, no leg attacks in judo, waist up kickboxing). Now, some of this stuff have evolved into its own sport (waist up kickboxing, TKD and maybe judo, greco roman wrestling, etc) so it is a seperate discussion but it used to bother me when TKD, HKD, TSD instructors would correct me in using a certain technique because his technique will beat what I am doing. Also it used to bother me a lot when a HKD instructor will claim how old and preserved his art is. What!?

In fact, I don’t think one should be so proud of how old and unchanged their martial art is.

rant

No. The best martial artist is the one who eliminates techniques that do not work or is exceedingly inefficient, and then develops and perfects the ones that work well for his body type and style. Not the one with the largest database of techniques. If it means getting rid of Katas period then be it so. A lot of schools have. Furthermore, if it means losing the identity of the particular martial art and releasing the confines and letting the art adapt continuously, then further let it be so. A lot of schools have become this way. Some for better, more for worse. But the ones that changed for better carry on martial arts in its true meaning.

I have this theory that Kung Fu and Karate used to be a lot more dynamic and innovations were plentiful, when fighting was real and how good your school, country, etc was at it had real social, military and economic consequences. Today, the traditional arts seem to have taken on a hermit state while sport fighting replaced the dynamic nature of TMA. And the way Katas are emphasized today really shows this.

The thing I learned from this thread is that Kata is a great tool to preserve the martial art. There needs to be a seperate curriculum to use the preserved tools of the trade and apply it into real fighting. However, with video recording technology is may be mostly moot, although I do concede Katas will always have a real, functional place in martial arts.

Still, it is being used as part of a bad cycle of maintaining archaic inefficiencies in the martial arts world of today. Other examples include rulesets developed to “preserve” the style (i.e. point sparring, no leg attacks in judo, waist up kickboxing). Now, some of this stuff have evolved into its own sport (waist up kickboxing, TKD and maybe judo, greco roman wrestling, etc) so it is a seperate discussion but it used to bother me when TKD, HKD, TSD instructors would correct me in using a certain technique because his technique will beat what I am doing. Also it used to bother me a lot when a HKD instructor will claim how old and preserved his art is. What!?

In fact, I don’t think one should be so proud of how old and unchanged their martial art is.

rant

[quote=Dargentus;2408811]Ok shite now since you’ve addressed me directly…

I will to be sure.
And I’ll get back to you.

In this actually we can agree also but probably on different grounds. But I really do feel that a lot of karate is not being trained properly.

And that is why my friend, I feel that this thread is a dead horse. Too many of those you refer to are going to agree with you and thus help negate half the points you are trying to make.

I also happen to think that kickboxing (not K1) is an enormous pile of wank.

I like my ignorance…it goes before me wherever i go. Otherwise I’d be late for all my appointments.

I think I know where you’re going here. And I cautiously agree but i still feel that the thread is a bit pointless and has already been done.

Looking and studying Kata in such a way that the individual subtle philosophical precepts and strategies that they can bring to the art of fighting is indeed an incredibly rewarding and useful tool for the advanced and experienced student.

Note the word ‘advanced’ and ‘experienced’.

They have to be felt.
No Teacher can bring that.
Horse/water/drink.

Therefore;
The only people who can actually understand you are the people who have already came to this conclusion (preaching to choir)or who think they have (and are douchebags).[/quote]

of course a gifted teacher can bring these elements out! I just gave an example below how this translates as fighting ability.

No people may not say it but they are thinking about the issues raised… people come to understanding and contrary to the beautiful sudden enlightenment of a zen experience it often is bloody and messy like childbirth! like the guy who studied every new age platitude and then slowly is led to the real Mccoy.

[quote=dwkfym;2408821]No. The best martial artist is the one who eliminates techniques that do not work or is exceedingly inefficient, and develops and perfects the ones that work well for his body type and style. If it means getting rid of Katas period then be it so. A lot of schools have. Furthermore, if it means losing the identity of the particular martial art and releasing the confines and letting the art adapt continuously, then further let it be so. A lot of schools have become this way. Some for better, more for worse. But the ones that changed for better carry on martial arts in its true meaning.
[/quote]
I’ll partly buy that, but we should add the “Darwinian technique elimination” part on top of the kata/drilling/conditioning/sparring/diversity stuff instead of replacing it all, right? It’s part of the whole process of evolution killing off old stuff…which then begs the question…isn’t some of the stuff still around that is centuries old…actually very very refined already? From a historical perspective, most bad forms probably died on the battlefield with their users. The ones that are still kicking are probably kicking for a very good reason.

I’ll buy this. I think money has a lot to do with it (lots of money in sports fighting, not a lot in teaching self defense) at least in the US. Most people don’t need martial arts combat training for day to day activities unless you live in a dangerous area, so a lot of lip service gets paid to real martial training here unless you are really training to win prize money etc.

Video is two dimensional though. Forms are three or even four dimensional depending, there is just that much more information that can be transmitted. Books are even worse, but how many millions of people read a book and think they can use those techniques.

Here’s what i think will happen: really soon computer modeling, 3D and 4D recording technologies will allow perfectly captured forms right down to the centimeter, and in 10 years you’ll be able to order a holographic instructional video from Amazon that will teach the forms perfectly. Maybe another 5 years until it’s completely interactive and everyone has their own style master on video disc in the family living room.

But it still wouldn’t replace a good teacher kicking your ass in person, and teaching you kata.

As far as your Darwinian analogy goes, yes it is very analogous. I am not sure which part of it you are buying and which part of it you are not buying though. Yes there are parts that stay the same throughout the ages, like when you throw a straight, you go into a frontal bow position. You pivot when you kick. Things like that. This whole analogy actually doesn’t add anything to the discussion but for the sake of understanding, let me add this one: like sharks, cockroaches, etc. Still works. But as life as a whole changes, martial arts as a whole does too. (BTW, I highly doubt Hung Gar shares that much with martial arts centuries before it came along; aside from the obvious fact that we only have so many ways to move our bodies)

Yes and no on the money part. If self defense was constantly tested (like how it was during certain historical times when martial arts really blossomed) it would change the face of traditional martial arts. Nowadays it isn’t tested the same way. Wars are fought with guns and missiles now, not fists and skirmish weapons.

The money driving sport fighting does bring in better and better athletes, but what really drives the evolution in sport fighting is the competition and the immediate result, that doesn’t result in death or serious maiming. Its like being able to run FEA analysis on a simple machine part; not 100% accurate but pretty damn close, without actually having to make and destroy the part. Of course, if there was no money involved in it, there wouldn’t be as much competitors since there woudl be no books, movies, TV coverage, etc about it. No doubt will be slower but it isn’t a crucial part of it; ask any boxer if he is doing it for money.

In a strict sense, nothing will replace what kata gives you; the way it is taught from generation to generation is pretty unique and like you said, can’t be 100% replaced by videos. I don’t think even all the technology advnaces you mention will replace it. Muscular sensations and anticipatory motor actuation is a big part of it.

But you can teach the exact same thing without a kata. When my coach tells me to do something one way or another, and I do it over and over again I retain how to do it and eventually learn how to apply it. Martial arts! How does boxing stay around without katas? how does MMA stay around without Katas? How does _____ (insert martial arts without kata here) stay around?

Oh yes, those arts change often and all the time. But thats not because of the lack of kata; that is because of its openness to innovation and change. While Kata isn’t causing that innovation and change, too much emphasis in it can delay innovation and change.

Those arts may not have sets but they do have things like forms, and combinations of forms (ie “sets”); aren’t many footwork techniques for instance taught in form method, ie a series of footwork patterns you could draw on a board or sheet, practice, and improve etc?

[quote=dwkfym;2408893]
Oh yes, those arts change often and all the time. But thats not because of the lack of kata; that is because of its openness to innovation and change. While Kata isn’t causing that innovation and change, too much emphasis in it can delay innovation and change.[/quote]

I’ll agree there but also say that there are some forms that just don’t need additional innovation because like you said, only so many ways to throw a punch. When I learn the entirety of hung ga I may decide that with my body type only x% is applicable or useful for me. That still means if I never use Technique X myself in fighting or sanda, I could still teach it to a newb.

[QUOTE=Dsimon3387;2408826]of course a gifted teacher can bring these elements out! I just gave an example below how this translates as fighting ability.

No people may not say it but they are thinking about the issues raised… people come to understanding and contrary to the beautiful sudden enlightenment of a zen experience it often is bloody and messy like childbirth! like the guy who studied every new age platitude and then slowly is led to the real Mccoy.[/QUOTE]

I don’t really feel that it’s possible to achieve a true zanchin state or indeed really ‘live’ your kata’s unless and untill your individual techniques and skills have been truly tested in real stress conditions. Whatever your teacher. Some things just can’t be taught. Have to be experienced. Like adrenalin. And learning to think past it. Its easy to think you’re achieved a zen state while on the dojo floor jumping around in your pjs.

My point is while you seem to know what you’re talking about your greater tactical/spiritual point is and will be lost on more than half of these douchebags.

I do actually salute you for trying tho sir.

Hence,
:deadhorse

Here’s some words’o wisdom from Matt

YouTube- Training & the i-Method - Matt Thornton

^^^ Post #2.
[U]

[/U]

You know who was really great? You know who broke forms, and refused to stay constrained by old routines and well-worn patterns? Andy Kaufman, the World’s First Inter Gender Wrestling Champion, actor, comedian, and put-on artist.

YouTube- Andy Kaufman on Late Night

What made him great was that you never knew where the act began or ended. That was commitment. His art was his life; his life was his art. You have to wonder what he would do with the Internet as his canvas.

[quote=Styygens;2408930]You know who was really great? You know who broke forms, and refused to stay constrained by old routines and well-worn patterns? Andy Kaufman, the World’s First Inter Gender Wrestling Champion, actor, comedian, and put-on artist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSn-pvZopns

What made him great was that you never knew where the act began or ended. That was commitment. His art was his life; his life was his art. You have to wonder what he would do with the Internet as his canvas.[/quote]

He spawned a million like him and they all have forum avatars.

Back OT: Are we done yet? Should we check back in a month and see if kata are still bullshit?

Based on our conversations (between me and WR/ED) you can eliminate Katas altogether from the world and training methodologies will not suffer.

yes, there are formlike sets that you should do. But those are not forms/Kata in the end. My first HKD school had long forms, and then 10 basic “sets” we called “basics.” They were divided by kicks, with different punches. Now, some of the punches were kinda stupid but thats a seperate topic. Even my master said “basics” covers all of the punches and kicks you will need to know within the art. Kata covered a bit of footwork but I learned so much more about footwork in alive drills.

PS: “sets” nice word. I’m going to add it to my forum-fu.

[quote=dwkfym;2408952]Based on our conversations (between me and WR/ED) you can eliminate Katas altogether from the world and training methodologies will not suffer.

yes, there are formlike sets that you should do. But those are not forms/Kata in the end. My first HKD school had long forms, and then 10 basic “sets” we called “basics.” They were divided by kicks, with different punches. Now, some of the punches were kinda stupid but thats a seperate topic. Even my master said “basics” covers all of the punches and kicks you will need to know within the art. Kata covered a bit of footwork but I learned so much more about footwork in alive drills.

PS: “sets” nice word. I’m going to add it to my forum-fu.[/quote]

There are some aspects of footwork which vary from individual to individual. My favorite example of this is taijutsu versus tai sabaki. Tai Jutsu is whole body movements that do not change… however tai sabaki which are the subtle angular shifts you need to fight with a technique change depending on the size. reach and height of the indivudual.

Hence some footwork cannot be taught in a form