[quote=dwkfym;2408952]Based on our conversations (between me and WR/ED) you can eliminate Katas altogether from the world and training methodologies will not suffer.
.[/quote]
Maybe, who knows, but if we eliminated kata a lot of great arts with long lineages would melt into just random scattered techniques and become nothing special, styles would no longer be “technique systems/collections” but fragmented to the point that any individual teacher might know 100 techniques of an good art or only 10. And you might still be able to learn those 10 and train with them to fight effectively, but nowhere near the mastery you could achieve from learning 100. From an anthropological perspective I think we’d lose out in the end, having these art forms disappear.
[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2409021]Maybe, who knows, but if we eliminated kata a lot of great arts with long lineages would melt into just random scattered techniques and become nothing special, styles would no longer be “technique systems/collections” but fragmented to the point that any individual teacher might know 100 techniques of an good art or only 10. And you might still be able to learn those 10 and train with them to fight effectively, but nowhere near the mastery you could achieve from learning 100. From an anthropological perspective I think we’d lose out in the end, having these art forms disappear.[/QUOTE]
In your opinion it would. But in my opinion, many arts would evolve. It’s that line of thinking that holds many ‘styles’ back. Just because “thats the way it’s always been” isn’t an excuse to keep doing it.
Forgive me if you’ve answered this before … but what do you know of Kata, etc anyway? Aren’t you an ex-Judo guy?
[quote=ADM;2409030]In your opinion it would. But in my opinion, many arts would evolve. It’s that line of thinking that holds many ‘styles’ back. Just because “thats the way it’s always been” isn’t an excuse to keep doing it.
Forgive me if you’ve answered this before … but what do you know of Kata, etc anyway? Aren’t you an ex-Judo guy?[/quote]
Hmm that’s just the thing, I don’t see where my style (an old one with a 100+ year old traceable lineage) has been “held back” or is missing anything, in fact in my style there have been more than a few “splits” as students become teachers that have resulted in changes to the overall curriculum in new schools and even in this decade major schools have grown and ultimately branched out to form newer schools who focus on different training methodologies, based on how the sifus want to teach. Hung ga, then while being very traditional by MA standards has continued to evolve and still keep the major forms, techniques, and training methods that make it “Hung Ga”. Different dishes, same flavor, so to speak.
Actually I am ex-Karate, returning judoka, and current hung ga student, although our “kata” are called “fist sets” and include all the stances, punches, kicks, locks, chokes, breaks (as in bone), the 5 animal forms (dragon snake tiger leopard crane), and qigong, etc.
OK just so we’re clear, I am only referring to Kata here, and since Judo doesn’t have any (but feel free to enlighten me, I don’t study Judo properly, only as part of our stand up for BJJ) I’m not referring to that.
So moving on.
You’ve done some CMA and Karate. You’ve filled me in on what types, but what kind of Karate did you do. And in both, how long have you trained for, what grades, etc?
To give you some perspective on my own background:
4.5 Years Kamao TKD (not even remotely affiliated with ITF / WTF, we’re 1 small club in 1 small town).
Cool, read and understood. But I don’t consider drills to be in anyway related to what I dislike about Kata and Forms. I understand you think they are, but I’m not addressing them, nor am I qualified to address them (so I won’t).
So all up you’ve done 4 years in styles such as Shotokan and Hung-Ga.
Last question, how many fights have you had. And by fights I don’t mean street fights. I’m referring to say anything like kickboxing, MMA, Full-contact (with or without padding).
Not non-contact or ‘points’ style which styles like GKR participate in.
[quote=ADM;2409065]Cool, read and understood. But I don’t consider drills to be in anyway related to what I dislike about Kata and Forms. I understand you think they are, but I’m not addressing them, nor am I qualified to address them (so I won’t).
So all up you’ve done 4 years in styles such as Shotokan and Hung-Ga.
Last question, how many fights have you had. And by fights I don’t mean street fights. I’m referring to say anything like kickboxing, MMA, Full-contact (with or without padding).
Not non-contact or ‘points’ style which styles like GKR participate in.[/quote]
I am not a combat sports guy so I don’t have a “record” or anything like that, but I did take part in kumite frequently during Shotokan (I was, after all, only ten so I only fought against other kids my age but I always looked forward to those nights).
I did also do three years of Judo with constant randori and got pretty decent at throwing and matwork. I was close to green belt when I got really hurt and had to leave but I’m on my way back in.
I am doing more sanda now (live sparring with/without protective equipment) and more resistive live fight training is in my future with hung ga.
i really don’t want to get involved in this thread, as the topic has been beaten to death on these fora, but i do want to say that in addition to any other benefit that can be gotten from them, the forms of hung ga are excellent qi gong routines, especially the iron wire form.
as an instructor i don’t feel that they are necessary to learn the art, although they are good to learn. i feel that after a year or two of sanda, students should be offered forms training, but not required to do it.
[quote=Ming Loyalist;2409081]i really don’t want to get involved in this thread, as the topic has been beaten to death on these fora, but i do want to say that in addition to any other benefit that can be gotten from them, the forms of hung ga are excellent qi gong routines, especially the iron wire form.
as an instructor i don’t feel that they are necessary to learn the art, although they are good to learn. i feel that after a year or two of sanda, students should be offered forms training, but not required to do it.
but most people don’t agree with me.[/quote]
“Good to learn” I like that philosophy, simple and honest. I do think that some people who go right into a really physical martial art like hung ga could benefit from a little forms training to help their bodies adjust but I also really enjoy sanda.
Alright W. Rabbit. I’ll level with you, it seems you did Shotokan for 3 years (when you were around 10) you’re a LOT older then that now, and for the last year you’ve been doing Hung Ga.
I really don’t feel you’re in a position to tell people how effective kata can be, however, this is more based on my belief that you need to test your art against other styles, 100% contact (obviously with rules). The whole ‘too deadly to spar’ argument has be done to death here and I really cbf beating that dead horse.
You don’t fight, you don’t have a lot of experience, so your words are really lost on me. I won’t try to change your opinion, that’s your decision to make.
[quote=ADM;2409094]
I really don’t feel you’re in a position to tell people how effective kata can be, however, this is more based on my belief that you need to test your art against other styles, 100% contact (obviously with rules). The whole ‘too deadly to spar’ argument has be done to death here and I really cbf beating that dead horse.
You don’t fight, you don’t have a lot of experience, so your words are really lost on me. I won’t try to change your opinion, that’s your decision to make.[/quote]
That’s a big straw man right there. What do you mean I “don’t fight” when I just told you I do sanda. I think you’re very unfamiliar with my art, sir and shouldn’t be making those assumptions.
As I’ve said previously, what I am espousing is not my “opinion” as a martial artist, but what is taught within the arts I’ve studied and I happen to agree with. [B]So please take your disbelief up with Wong Fei Hung and Gichin Funakoshi who created and passed on the sets and not humble little Wood Rabbit, who just happens to agree with their view of things.
Also, consider that Hung ga has been tested against other styles for well over a century and is considered an effective fighting art especially by certain professional fighters on this board.
[/B]
Sanda is fairly awesome, not many will deny that. But you’ve never competed in it have you? From what I’ve read you’ve done sparring. Sparring, whilst awesome, isn’t fighting.
[QUOTE=ADM;2409099]Sanda is fairly awesome, not many will deny that. But you’ve never competed in it have you? From what I’ve read you’ve done sparring. Sparring, whilst awesome, isn’t fighting.[/QUOTE]
and this is the part of the thread where i ask if anyone is sending people to the baltimore lei tai this year, cause that’s where this discussion is headed.
More straw man arguments, you are trying to use my own inexperience to attack the form set/kata debate in your favor.
Besides I’ve fought plenty unless you don’t think Judo randori is fighting. I sure choked/locked/barred a lot of other strong, skilled people…
Don’t make this thread about my own experiences, because someone who is professionally experienced and has forms/set training might come along and squash that. Even if they don’t, they’re here watching. They just hate the very existence of this thread.
[quote=Ming Loyalist;2409102]and this is the part of the thread where i ask if anyone is sending people to the baltimore lei tai this year, cause that’s where this discussion is headed.
Yes Judo, whilst having drills, does not have Kata. So please don’t use THAT as your ‘go to’ for saving you have fighting experience.
And yes, I rate Judo tournaments quite highly. But again, please read above.
With your striking art(s) experience I haven’t seen much that helps you with your argument. You’ve done ‘some’ sparring, that’s it. Let me know when you’ve entered a comp and you’re trying to knock the other guy out / down. There’s plenty out there. Fact is your opinion is based on limited experience in what the hell you’re talking about.
[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2409107]I, sir, am not nearly ready.[/QUOTE]
i didn’t say that you had to be, but if some of your sparring partners were going, that would speak greatly to the quality and intensity of your sanda training.
Ok fine I’ll play your game. I’ve said forms are encyclopedic sets of calisthenics for learning new techniques, exercising, developing power, and ultimately for dissection, drilling, and applications during live fighting. Nothing more grandiose than those which are quite meager.
You are still trying to discredit my agreement with a popular concept by going after my own personal experience and that means you are going for an easy target…at least in your mind.
Now go discredit every other poster in the thread who supports everything I’ve said about form sets/kata and DOES have more competitive experience. Are you prepared? I doubt you are.