Martial Arts Forms their true purpose?

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Trollshido
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I am putting this in Ymas because it is not style specific. You find a lot of information is transmitted in the martial arts without any real sceptacism… that is the purpose of this site right? I mean if anyone can make a claim then anyone does and what we wind up with is less than steller results.

I hold a certain core belief that I developed some time ago after about 15 years of study in the martial arts. My belief was and is… that if you sort of close your ears and eyes off a bit and take a part of the martial arts where people hold strong opinions… if you play with the material certain facts will reveal themselves to you. For example, fight with a technique and find out for yourself about it and you will learn a lot, as compared to making assumptions.

Ok so… forms. I don’t believe that forms were designed to fight with at all I think that forms were developed as a way to hollographically transmit the art so that people could have a sort of physical text from which to study the art from. A kata can reveal so many things about an art, it can reveal techniques used, strategies employed, psychological approaches used by the art, and the pedogogy used by the art.

It is fallacy to think that a linear progression of technique A to technique B practiced as a form, translates exactly during a real situation. However what forms do allow is for a teacher to give the student the vocabulary, concepts and techniques of the art which can then be deconstructed further as the student develops the capacity and familiarity with the techniques and approaches.

Furthermore I believe that to think in one dimension as in "practicing a kick in a form = learning how to kick a person is misleading. In reality what reveals itself to a person practicing a technique in a form is different information depending on their ability. The Bujinkan is a great example of this phenomena: five people can learn a kata from Gyoko Ryu and depending on their level of ability can all learn different things. One person may learn how to do a technique, another person may learn how to set up a technique during a situation a third person may learn hidden (ura) applications that are not visible to most people. And finally a true teacher? Well I believe that in my case at least I would easily spend ten years unpacking all the information that is potentially available in one form in one school in the Gyokko system.

Most martial artists think that forms translate directly and matter of factly into application… is that the fault of martial arts? that people misinterpret things?

If this topic is too high falutent I apologize… I have had this thought many years and IIF made an excellent observation during a thread related to an idiot who was telling his student during a fight to “walk a circle” as in do what the kata does… and it made me want to bring this idiocy to the attention of this community.

Most teachers do still think this way do I have to comment in the potential for misinformation that comes out of this thoughtology? I have found in conversation that many older Chinese teachers do not think this way. In conversation with their senior students there seems to be a feeling that the katas are a way to teach the concepts that are then pulled out and developed as the teacher seems fit. Many gifted teachers in the Booj do the same thing Doran used to pull apart movements in the Kihon and schools and teach maximum efficiency with these movements during seminars.

If this is true then katas are a very sophisticated hollographic physically based textbook that is imprinted on the student and used based on the teacher and students level of insight into the art… Technique literally reveals itself through what the katas put before one to play with, if one is brave enough to get punched in the nose enough times!! haha

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You learn the form to learn the technique, then apply it in drills and sparring. Thats about as complicated as it gets.

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What he said.

Op: i think that this or much like it has been said in previous threads ( I know because I necro’ed it and thus became the focus for several bullies wrath:toothy5:)

And I sincerely admire anyone who uses the word ‘thoughtology’.

Tip of the cap to you sir.

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Class filler.

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This thread is the equivalent of performing fellatio on a dead horse.

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[quote=Dsimon3387;2408253]
If this is true then katas are a very sophisticated hollographic physically based textbook that is imprinted on the student and used based on the teacher and students level of insight into the art… Technique literally reveals itself through what the katas put before one to play with, if one is brave enough to get punched in the nose enough times!! haha[/quote]

I agree 100% that kata/forms are encyclopedic training manuals in four dimensional calisthenic form. imho, forms/kata are the just best way to compile and transmit physical techniques from generation to generation. You can’t do the same thing with books (they are two dimensional) or DVDs (also two dimentional) which represent the most advanced forms of information in the 21st century, but these ancient forms are actually 4D models of techniques and transitions, amazingly advanced considering how old a concept they are.

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I like learning forms because it is historical record of my art that has been handed down intact through a long, unbroken lineage. It is cool to be doing a form that was done similarly a hundred years ago.

However, I prefer bag work and sparring to learn to fight. It is a lot quicker and to the point.

I would tell people to learn to fight first, and then forms afterward, in order to give them something further to develop in their art.

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While whipping it.

Lets sit Back now and watch all the forms-adherents come out of the woodwork and initiate a big beastial necrophiliac circle jerk…with sado-masochistic overtones.

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Forms also serve as mnemonic tools in largely illiterate or partially literate cultures/communities, especially those that really venerate “ancestral wisdom”. They also have a cultural and historical value that has very little to do with how well they teach practical fighting skills, though IMO a good teacher/practitioner can interpret forms so that they do teach valid practical lessons.

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You may believe that is all there is to it… that is not what I said in this thread though.

My point is that forms can be a way to teach strategy, the thinking of the art, techniques and even things like formalities of the art…

My point is that there is an efficiency about transmitting information this way where you can give a person the information and have it arrainged so that as they get better the information actually shows them more about itself and… the information can be taken out of the kata by a good teacher and elaborated upon.

Another example would be the vedic texts of India which were completely memorized by the Brahmans… in so memorizing the text was broken into syllabules that allowed one to teach and learn Sanskrit… each directional nod of the head corresponding to a syllabule. In this manner many things are taught and conveyed as part of the text.

11

Indeed.

What is not so obvious is that they are in fact a very efficient way of transmitting a lot of information through our social nature. For example on older times when conditioning nutrition and other such things had to be a part of training forms had a way to address that: namely when you could complete you were strong enough to go on.

Please see my example about the Vedas… reason being that while there is more egalitarian type impulses when we discuss martial training, this type of social learning that involves the body can be used by the literate class as well. However it would be a mistake to not note, as you have noted properly, that learning through movements is an inherently egalitarian process, despite how people may hide forms from each other.

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Our Asian predecessors invented forms because they erroneously believed they were the best form of training techniques along with proper posture and body positioning. Our Western predecessors did not invent forms because they believed, correctly, that the best form of training was practicing the actual techniques while using proper posture and body positioning. They are a relic of an era past, more historical curiosity than useful tool.

That being said, it’s a fairly safe way for old fuckers like me to still pretend they are doing Krotty without suffering debilitating injuries due to cruel, medieval training methods.

And class filler.

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[QUOTE=diesel_tke;2408270]I like learning forms because it is historical record of my art that has been handed down intact through a long, unbroken lineage. It is cool to be doing a form that was done similarly a hundred years ago.[/QUOTE]Hate to break it to you but, it is doubtful you are doing the actual 100 year old form

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[quote=crappler;2408331]Our Asian predecessors invented forms because they erroneously believed they were the best form of training techniques along with proper posture and body positioning. Our Western predecessors did not invent forms because they believed, correctly, that the best form of training was practicing the actual techniques while using proper posture and body positioning. They are a relic of an era past, more historical curiosity than useful tool.

That being said, it’s a fairly safe way for old fuckers like me to still pretend they are doing Krotty without suffering debilitating injuries due to cruel, medieval training methods.

And class filler.[/quote]

and so the screed goes.

Guys look… Look at the issue for a moment from the perspective of the teacher and before we go there… can you name any Japanese are with no forms? I don’t think that Aikido or AIkijutsu has forms. But even Kano, quite the Western nfluenced one, quite the intellectual giant, quite th innovator, thought it prudent to incorporate forms into Judo… WHY?

First off you have your Ryu ha, and in your ryuha you have your fighters your teachers your heredity people etc and you need some form of consistancy… you realize that even before the telephone is invented… that if you try to teach every individual the art, or even some individuals so they can teach others that 3 generations from now (the game of telephone) what you want your shit to look like will probably look very different… No you need a way to transmit the art in a base way that gives everybody certain defining info and characteristics about your art…

Forms are a way to do that. from the most literate to the most ill literate you can vertually guarantee that everyone understands the base principles that make your art transmitable as your art.

Everybody here so far is only thinking from a studen’s perspective. You can have 3 generations of gifted teachers working on vastly different approaches but all referring to the same kata. You can have change and immutabilty.

The problem is not the guy who needs to practice the punch it is the stylistic qualities of the way you want the punch to be and how to guarantee that those characteristics will be understood, critiqued, applied.

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This thread =:beatdead:.

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I was under the impression that forms were something that striking-based TMAs hid their top-secret, high-level grappling techniques within.

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[QUOTE=Larus marinus;2408345]I was under the impression that forms were something that striking-based TMAs hid their top-secret, high-level grappling techniques within.[/QUOTE]

Certainly! And it’s all ready to be yours for 6,583 payments of JUST $19.95!

Call RIGHT NOW and you’ll also receive psychological validation for your insane claims with no historical backing!

CALL NOW.

P.S. Dsimon3387, you suck big wet donkey cocks. I hope you get raped repeatedly by a group of bears.

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[quote=Larus marinus;2408345]I was under the impression that forms were something that striking-based TMAs hid their top-secret, high-level grappling techniques within.[/quote]Thats what we want you to think.

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Ssshhh!!

I’m of the notion that forms, when trained properly are beneficial sure. To learn how to actually apply your techniques (kicks, punches etc.) you need to spar.

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[quote=helmutlvx;2408348]Certainly! And it’s all ready to be yours for 6,583 payments of JUST $19.95!

Call RIGHT NOW and you’ll also receive psychological validation for your insane claims with no historical backing!

CALL NOW.

P.S. Dsimon3387, you suck big wet donkey cocks. I hope you get raped repeatedly by a group of bears.[/quote]

So sorry that someone has forced you to engage in this thread… Hope they let you off the hook for the sake of us both as I could live without your ignorance and hostility

edit by the way you study goju yes? would you care to elaborate on where one can see the differnce between Goju and Sho ran Ryu? Might it be in the katas?