“I think we may be talking about a different block, or its taught completely differently. Blocking a real round kick with that would indeed be stupid, but TKD snap kicks can totally be blocked with a crescent-looking block like that. Otherwise, makes much more sense to block groin shots like you said. In TKD competitions you shouldn’t be kicking to the groin so maybe that is why I was once upon a time, taught to use it the way I described.”
[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2408672]Forgive my hyberbole, but it’s absolutely true. Power and strength can be developed through forms training.[/QUOTE]
Maybe to a certain very low level. Slowly and with poor efficiency. Forms are just aerobics. You want to be powerful and strong like an aerobics instructor?
[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2408672]Someone also pointed out advanced forms in gong fu and even Judo are NOT FOR COMBAT but for advanced levels of development. Iron Wire in hung ga is a good example. This set involves muscular tension and breathing to enhance combat training already done with other exercises (including progressive resistance sanda with a partner).[/QUOTE]
Muscular tension katas (I got Sanchin in my kata days) are a trump card for the anti-kata side. Trying to do fighting techniques while breathing strangely and attempting to contract every muscle in your body is a perfect antithesis of proper training.
In Hedgehogy’s post, the first picture was of a karateka performing gedan-barai in renoji-dachi. The second was a group of students performing gedan-barai in shiko-dachi.
Renoji-dachi is a stance that is mostly used in sweeps and close throws. I have no idea why that guy is posed like that, beyond the fact that it is a pose and not a show of technique.
Shiko-dachi is a very low stance used mostly with techniques that perform kuzushi. Back when I was a white belt, I would block mae-geri with gedan-barai.
This is a shit drill. It’s useless. In kumite, you will get a bruised arm and get kicked. I don’t know why this persists as a an actual defense, but there are much better leg defenses that use LEGS.
At dan level, that kind of shit won’t fly and the “rule” “Hands meet hands, feet meet feet.” is very logical. In my opinion.
This thread is getting more and more nauseating as the pages pile up.
[quote=MrGalt;2408702]Maybe to a certain very low level. Slowly and with poor efficiency. Forms are just aerobics. You want to be powerful and strong like an aerobics instructor?
[/quote]
They are highly aerobic and mildly anaerobic. I agree they are a “low” level component of fight training but no more “low level” than other conditioning routines. No good fighter just spars, they do other forms of physical training…some of them really out there too. I read MMAMickey’s thread on neck conditioning, there’s a good example of something that on the surface is NOT FIGHTING but is still a great fight conditioning exercise. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater…
[quote=MrGalt;2408702]
Muscular tension katas (I got Sanchin in my kata days) are a trump card for the anti-kata side. Trying to do fighting techniques while breathing strangely and attempting to contract every muscle in your body is a perfect antithesis of proper training.[/quote]
I don’t know that its fair to compare different styles development-only kata, like I’ve said before there are so many forms…good, bad, ugly, stupid, and really, really smart. The breathing we learn in gong fu forms is very natural, nothing is ever forced. We don’t contract every muscle in the body in gong fu forms, its selective and targeted (ie the dantian, or the wrists, or the forearms etc).
“At dan level, that kind of shit won’t fly and the “rule” “Hands meet hands, feet meet feet.” is very logical. In my opinion.”
But you see people blocking kicks all the time with their hands. Also how would you block a jodan or even a chudan level kick with your feet?.
“Maybe to a certain very low level. Slowly and with poor efficiency. Forms are just aerobics. You want to be powerful and strong like an aerobics instructor?”
Power is not just physical strength it also comes from correct body mechanics which Kata can teach. For example Nage no Kata can help you develop a powerful harai goshi through use of Judo principals and body mechanics it wont make you strong but it will make you able to use power in the context of the technique.
[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2408713]They are highly aerobic and mildly anaerobic. I agree they are a “low” level component of fight training but no more “low level” than other conditioning routines. No good fighter just spars, they do other forms of physical training…some of them really out there too. I read MMAMickey’s thread on neck conditioning, there’s a good example of something that on the surface is NOT FIGHTING but is still a great fight conditioning exercise. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater…[/QUOTE]
Katas fail really hard as physical conditioning. A “real” kata has no advantages over tae-bo for conditioning.
[quote=speedycerviche;2408716]
Power is not just physical strength it also comes from correct body mechanics which Kata can teach. For example Nage no Kata can help you develop a powerful harai goshi through use of Judo principals and body mechanics it wont make you strong but it will make you able to use power in the context of the technique.[/quote]
Great, great, great point. There is more than just brute muscular strength, hip power/agility? The form sets I practice among other things build strength and speed in the hips ability to snap with “ging”. I’ve definitely built this up over the last year and can turn my waist faster, further, and with more power than ever before, this is an important part of gong fu training but it also definitely applies to things like Judo as speedy pointed out.
[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2408713] The breathing we learn in gong fu forms is very natural, nothing is ever forced. We don’t contract every muscle in the body in gong fu forms, its selective and targeted (ie the dantian, or the wrists, or the forearms etc).[/QUOTE]
If it’s so natural, why do you have to learn it?
What benefits do you get out of contracting your dantian muscle?
What benefits do you get out of contracting your dantian muscle?"
Breathing is natural but you would be suprised how many people new to martial arts do not breath when doing randori or drills. From what I have been told by a Tajiquan teacher contracting it helps with posture and I have been doing and I feel it has helped my Judo and my over all back health (I have had a bad back for a while).
I disagree with that wholeheartedly, since I lost 30 lbs, gained significant muscle and increased flexibility, and increased my diaphragm strength enought to be able to toss my asthma medications from just practicing gong fu forms.
Now I do sanda using those techniques I learned in the forms, but I still do forms to stay in shape. It’s not “fail” at all because I’ve seen very marked physical improvement from performing mine. But like I said, not all forms/sets/kata are going to be the same…
[quote=MrGalt;2408722]If it’s so natural, why do you have to learn it?
What benefits do you get out of contracting your dantian muscle?[/quote]
The dantian isn’t a muscle but I won’t go into that.
Diaphragm (dantian area) breathing is actually a very valuable skill. Singers and musicians use it to sing/play longer/louder, and sport/combat artists can gain a lot of breathing efficiency from developing this.
[QUOTE=speedycerviche;2408727]"If it’s so natural, why do you have to learn it?
What benefits do you get out of contracting your dantian muscle?"
Breathing is natural but you would be suprised how many people new to martial arts do not breath when doing randori or drills. From what I have been told by a Tajiquan teacher contracting it helps with posture and I have been doing and I feel it has helped my Judo and my over all back health (I have had a bad back for a while).[/QUOTE]
They sure do. But they shouldn’t, since kata is teaching them to breathe, right? Or do you mean that they resume breathing once they’ve learnt how? Do people in kata-less arts never learn this secret?
So you just walk around with your rectus abdominus contracted at all times? This is your back therapy? Maybe you should just get a new chair.
The thing is, anything kata do can be done better. Want to exercise and build power? Hit a heavy bag for three minutes. You will develop more power making contact, get better cardio because most forms are shorter (Or at least equal), and you can practice the same way you fight. So the power, cardio, and techniques, transfer much easier to sparring.
Gained muscle from forms? Lols okay. Seriously though if you had been shadowboxing/bag hitting with you know, actual sanda techniques. You would be in as good condition, and a lot better at sanda.
“Jodan level kicks can be dodged and I’ve countered kicks at chudan with hiza-geri tons of times.”
Sure they can be dodged but they can not always be dodged and yes you can use knee blocks but you can also use hand parrys. You see people blocking/deflecting kicks with their hands all the time to not learn to do so because of some saying is silly.
[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2408728]I disagree with that wholeheartedly, since I lost 30 lbs, gained significant muscle and increased flexibility, and increased my diaphragm strength enought to be able to toss my asthma medications from just practicing gong fu forms.
Now I do sanda using those techniques I learned in the forms, but I still do forms to stay in shape. It’s not “fail” at all because I’ve seen very marked physical improvement from performing mine. But like I said, not all forms/sets/kata are going to be the same…[/QUOTE]
I’m not even going to bore you with correlation and causation. You did nothing else in all that time that might have something to do with this but forms. That’s amazing. Most of the guys I know who do forms are in the same shape as the guys who don’t do forms but get an equivalent amount of real exercise.
What would even the be the cause of muscle growth from doing forms? How fat were you to start?
[quote=FriendlyFire;2408735]The thing is, anything kata do can be done better. Want to exercise and build power? Hit a heavy bag for three minutes. You will develop more power making contact, get better cardio because most forms are shorter (Or at least equal), and you can practice the same way you fight. So the power, cardio, and techniques, transfer much easier to sparring.
[/quote]
I’ll agree punching a bag is good conditioning, but that doesn’t mean its better than kata. And back to the OP: the ultimate purpose of forms is to maintain the library of techniques in a workout-style form. Punching a bag is relatively one dimensional compared to the encyclopedic forms, in fact you could easily build your own form set/kata that INCLUDES the bag!! What do you think shaolin training dummies are? In gong fu we don’t just hit bags, we hit wooden arms too. And real arms.
[quote=FriendlyFire;2408735]
Gained muscle from forms? Lols okay. Seriously though if you had been shadowboxing/bag hitting with you know, actual sanda techniques. You would be in as good condition, and a lot better at sanda.[/quote]
What’s wrong with doing both though, since they complement each other (an aerobics workout made of techniques alongside drills and sparring). This is my point, the argument “X sucks Y is better” is actually wrong. It should be “X is good, Y is good too”.
"They sure do. But they shouldn’t, since kata is teaching them to breathe, right? Or do you mean that they resume breathing once they’ve learnt how? Do people in kata-less arts never learn this secret?
So you just walk around with your rectus abdominus contracted at all times? This is your back therapy? Maybe you should just get a new chair."
Well I am not sure I have not been to a gym that does breathing Katas so I could not tell you. Usally people figure out to breathe semi quickly or their own but doing the Kata or any other breathing exercise may help. Also I seem to have misunderstood what the daintian and as such retract my former statement and my back is playing up because of my work, I sit on a fit ball in front of my PC.
[quote=MrGalt;2408740]I’m not even going to bore you with correlation and causation. You did nothing else in all that time that might have something to do with this but forms. That’s amazing. Most of the guys I know who do forms are in the same shape as the guys who don’t do forms but get an equivalent amount of real exercise.
What would even the be the cause of muscle growth from doing forms? How fat were you to start?[/quote]
Hung ga forms are extremely physically demanding forms. That’s all I will say about that, don’t knock what you haven’t tried yourself. It’s impossible to even last through the entire form until you’ve conditioned yourself to be able to finish it. It’s the most intense form of physical exercise I’ve ever encountered.
The muscle growth comes from the alternating muscular tension performed in the forms, which is why I said it was “mildly anaerobic”. It won’t build huge biceps that sort of thing but it definitely turns fat to lean muscle over time.
I’ve never really been fat, I’m just a tall heavyweight.
This thread has truly now run its course… I just read the last few posts and it has become clear that same old tired debate about the benefitt of forms. Anyhow for a few golden cyber moments I like to think that the issue was actually discussed:
Namely how forms do, as a way of transmitting information about the art, in which case one would compare them to a textbook, and a video and with a teacher trying to individually teach people at teh beginning level.
FOrms have the virtue of being hollographic in that they can transmit a lot of different things wnd varied things with a relatively little bit of information… this is what intrigues me, this and little else.
I do not think forms are useful as a way to train fighters
as a way to gain better exerscize
as a way of Kin Hin (moving meditation.
I think their rea purpose is in helping to give teachers of the art material to dessimate and to work with so that they can teach on many different levels using the same techniques.
please for the love of god do not let this thread deteriorate into a debate about forms as a training method!!!:copdance: