Martial Arts Forms their true purpose?

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Trollshido
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There is debate among judo scholars as to why Kano included kata in Judo. Some even go so far as to say he did it to make sure the koryu jujutsu ryu would buy into Judo as the “modernized” ju jutsu, as kata was their most common way of training.

The most common take is that the randori no kata, (Nage No Kata and Katame no Kata) are training methods, just as is randori. Typically, what is advocated is kata is maybe 25% of one’s Judo training regime. So kata is not THE MAJOR method of Judo training. If you look around enough, you will see that Kano himself said that. I think that will show where Kano stood on the issue.

Other kata, like Ju No Kata and Itsutsu no Kata, are considered to be “principle” kata, that illustrate higher principles of Judo. Kano himself created Ju No Kata. I’m sure most of you guys would consider it pretty useless to practice it to learn how to fight, but as Dsimon suggested, if you are at a certain level in Judo, and practice Ju No Kata, things jump out at you. I’ve had aha! moments and I’ve only done Ju No Kata a couple of times, and not all of it at that.

Itsutsu no Kata is likely an Tenjin Shin’yo Ryu kata that Kano learned when studying that art. I won’t try to explain it, as I have no idea, really.

Kime No Kata is a preservation of older self defense techniques from koryu jujutsu. Koshiki No Kata is the only remaining kata (or apparently anything for that matter) of Kito Ryu, the other primary root koryu of Judo. I don’t know or understand it either. Good for direct fighting applications? Not really, but it does illustrate higher principles of throwing, and is the art from which the throwing of Judo primarily comes.

I’ll stop there. Judo kata have different purposes and origins, from training method and mnemonics for randori waza, to preserving older jujutsu techniques and principles, to illuminating principles at the core of Judo.

It’s more complex than just “kata does not equal sparring so it’s no good for anything”.

Ben

102

Wong Fei Hung Quote: “The tiger/crane form I made up was just a way to get my students in cool with the ladies. Fuck you, if you think that shit is for fighting.”

(not actual quote) :frowning:

103

[quote=DdlR;2408540]
Thus, we get both historical preservation and combat-practical use (via progressive pressure-testing) out of the forms as a bridge between set-plays and free sparring/fencing.[/quote]

This sounds essentially the same as how CMA forms training bridges into things like tui sao and sanda. Give them the bible of your art, then teach them things like balance, sense, timing, and on to kicking ass with a partner.

Your example was really interesting…a mix of eastern forms with western training methods.

104

[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2408577]This sounds essentially the same as how CMA forms training bridges into things like tui sao and sanda. Give them the bible of your art, then teach them things like balance, sense, timing, and on to kicking ass with a partner.

Your example was really interesting…a mix of eastern forms with western training methods.[/QUOTE]

The proportions break down to roughly 50% eclectic jujitsu/judo, 40% Swiss/French stick fighting, 10% Marquis of Queensberry boxing and low kicking. Bartitsu was the first known cross-training method between Asian and European combat styles.

We’re very lucky that Barton-Wright went into as much detail as he did back in 1900, but his “sequences” only illustrate some aspects of Bartitsu. The modern revival is based simultaneously on preserving Bartitsu as we know it it was (via the sequences) and trying to figure out what else it was, and what it can be today. It’s an experimental process applied to early 20th century martial arts rather than a codified style in itself.

105

After 8 years of TKD and 3 years of Wushu I would say this:

Forms are fun and I had a blast doing them. They taught me nothing about fighting. Transferable information or skill to fighting was limited and almost accidental at best. Forms from my training have changed and thus are a poor ‘link to the past’.

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[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2408534]Because there is always a combat application for each technique in the form.
[/QUOTE]



I don’t even gotta say nothin.

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[quote=Hedgehogey;2408598]

I don’t even gotta say nothin.[/quote]

This stance is in the 1st poomse any TKDer learns. I used to always lol at that one. I asked one TKD instructor I met about it and he said that it was a LOW KICK BLOCK. LOLROFLCOPTER

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[QUOTE=Squerlli;2408555]The purpose of martial arts : to fight.

If you’re not fighting, you’re not practicing a martial art. Kata’s are useful for judo the same way a slow compliant demonstration of a double leg or ankle pick is useful in freestyle wrestling. You show someone what they’re supposed to do and how it’s properly done.

If you’re punching and kicking the air, then you’re shadow boxing and it should only be done as a warm up. That is the only purpose it serves. Stop trying to find some hidden meaning behind it, stop thinking a prearranged form helps you in an actual fight and stop thinking you’re doing some ‘200 year old kata’ because some fat white guy in a strip mall probably invented it in the 80’s.

Summary: Shut the fuck up and go back to training.[/QUOTE]

This x 8,000.

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The purpose of martial arts is to dance and learn to be comfortable in your own skin-- no matter how awkward you may appear to others–in the dojo, you’re a superstar. Shut the fuck up and get into those silk PJs. We’ve got work to do, ladies.

110

Have you ever tried not training in katas and spending that time to train aliveness? Esp in a striking context? Of course, you’d have to train as often as you can to begin with to see the difference.

If there was an original intent to Katas, aside from preserving lineage and technique, it is lost from how forms are emphasized today. In all the Katas I know it is impossible to imagine a fully resisting opponent’s shadow to make the form meaningful. If you think you can in your form, perhaps you don’t quite understand fighting dynamics in a realistic sense or you are learning some sort of really badass form. Even if it is the latter, you won’t gain any benefit past what shadow boxing would give you. (if that.)

Instead of doing katas, put on some small gloves and do some light-contact drills. Then move onto sparring. I should start a thread: How do martial arts, the non-Kata way. I would post beginning contact drills and sparring drills for you to learn one by one with another partner.

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“I don’t even gotta say nothin”

“This stance is in the 1st poomse any TKDer learns. I used to always lol at that one. I asked one TKD instructor I met about it and he said that it was a LOW KICK BLOCK. LOLROFLCOPTER”

Have you never seen a mae geri blocked with gedan barai before?. The technique and the principals are perfectly legit although stylised for the Kata.

112

I think he is implying that a good kick will break that arm, and is useless if you aim low enough. (unless you feel like taking more risks)

That second picture is royal-deluxe-gold though. And I can think of all these moves that “gather ki” that might have some physiological aspect to it but is easily defeated by jab/teep

Edit: Actually, moose prob wasn’t implying that but true regardless. My apologies if you were, moose.

113

“I think he is implying that a good kick will break that arm, and is useless if you aim low enough. (unless you feel like taking more risks)”

It is used to block front kicks not round house kicks and it is perfectly fine for doing so.

114

It’s only going to block a very specific snap kick. All other front kicks are going to go right above/through that. And you sure its not also used to block round or roundish kicks? Bichagi and Dolyochagis? (I don’t know what those would be in Japanese) It would make much more sense to use it to deflect some sort of front snap kick than a round kick, but I seem to recall using it all the time to block round kicks in TKD.

115

“It’s only going to block a very specific snap kick. All other front kicks are going to go right above that. And you sure its not also used to block round or roundish kicks? Bichagi and Dolyochagis? (I don’t know what those would be in Japanese)”

It is a block that uses the fore arm to block the area around groin to the area around the solar plexus you do not often see front kicks higher then that do you?. Remeber also that this is a stylised version of the block just like all moves in Kata it is stylised. As for blocking roundish kicks that does not sound like a very smart idea IMHO.

116

I think we may be talking about a different block, or its taught completely differently. Blocking a real round kick with that would indeed be stupid, but TKD snap kicks can totally be blocked with a crescent-looking block like that. Otherwise, makes much more sense to block groin shots like you said. In TKD competitions you shouldn’t be kicking to the groin so maybe that is why I was once upon a time, taught to use it the way I described.

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[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2408448]And I have met very powerful gong fu artists who exhibit a SHITLOAD of power when performing forms. The difference between watching a dainty wushu form vs, a powerful set performed by a conditioned fighter is staggering.
[/QUOTE]

Glad to see you sticking around and trying to contribute.

That said, this is the real danger of kata. Everybody seems to just read garbage like this and nod.

Really? A SHITLOAD of power in his forms? As in he punched the AIR with a SHITLOAD of power? He struck dramatic kung fu poses with a SHITLOAD of power? He blocked or evaded SHITLOAD OF POWER-having attacks from SHITLOADEDLY POWERFUL imaginary opponents? Piss off.

118

Oh Dsimon, why why why? This topic is like arguing about religion, no one ever changes the other side’s mind and both sides present inaccurate arguments to bolster their case.

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[quote=MrGalt;2408667]Glad to see you sticking around and trying to contribute.

That said, this is the real danger of kata. Everybody seems to just read garbage like this and nod.

Really? A SHITLOAD of power in his forms? As in he punched the AIR with a SHITLOAD of power? He struck dramatic kung fu poses with a SHITLOAD of power? He blocked or evaded SHITLOAD OF POWER-having attacks from SHITLOADEDLY POWERFUL imaginary opponents? Piss off.[/quote]

Forgive my hyberbole, but it’s absolutely true. Power and strength can be developed through forms training.

Punching the air in forms is not meant to be the same as punching a bag or opponent, those should be done as well. Forms training in a vacuum makes a non-fighter (ie pretty wushu)

If you read the whole thread others and I are espousing form sets/kata as a training tool (and an important one), not for learning to fight but for learning techniques in encyclopedic, four dimensional form and then bridging into practical applications. Read the post on Bartjitsu to see a good example that ties nicely into what many CMAs do with forms->drills->sanda.

Some people are COMPARING forms in different martial arts ie TKD vs. gong fu…not sure that’s always a good idea…jI don’t think it’s fair to say all form sets are the same throughout all MAs. Some are going to be better, and some absolutely useless.

Someone also pointed out advanced forms in gong fu and even Judo are NOT FOR COMBAT but for advanced levels of development. Iron Wire in hung ga is a good example. This set involves muscular tension and breathing to enhance combat training already done with other exercises (including progressive resistance sanda with a partner).

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I agree this is a holy war topic (but hey I need to write man). We can help end the holy war by agreeing to see the other’s sides POV, or we can go on bashing skulls for Jesus.

I think the point is to help the people who are dismissive and unnecessarily skeptical open their eyes to something many great, masterful martial artists would go to their graves defending, that forms are elemental. Not complete, but fundamental to truly mastering a particular style, and a big part of why we call it “martial arts” and not “martial something else”.