Martial Arts Forms their true purpose?

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Trollshido
61

Rabbit: I would probably stop making gross assumptions about me, because it’s not helping your argument.

Give me someone who spent 3 years doing Kata and someone who spent 3 years sparring, and put them in a fight, and I’ll tell you now, the Kata guy will most likely get his arse whooped.

I’ve sparred so many people who are wonderful at Kata nad have good form for me to think otherwise.

Secondly, BJJ … for me at least, I’ve only been doing for 1.5 - 2 years now. Somewhere in between that. It pales in comparision to my striking background. And I train with many people who use it as a cross-training art, some do Goju-karate, and many of those enjoy their Kata.

And lastly … talkin’ bout Kata man. Kata …

62

Story time.

“When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, the cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. So the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice.”

Read that off some website, this thread made me think of it.

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[quote=FriendlyFire;2408489]
That’s how forms go. Most of the techniques in traditional forms are bad for their basic purpose, and advanced hidden shit is not actually practiced when you do a form. How bout you just teach and drill the arm lock? Nah, lets hide it as a block instead! Clearly that is the best way to pass it on. Teaching techniques one at a time with their real application up front would be ridiculous![/quote]

Not all forms are the same though dude. There are definitely good forms, bad forms, useless forms, and lots and lots and lots of dead ones. How many forms set have there been in the long history of all martial arts…hundreds? The best ones have survived but I’m sure plenty of crappy ones persist.

I will agree learning all the techniques of a style and then never extracting, drilling, and doing live fighting with them is a big waste of time unless you are a martial arts historian.

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[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2408496]Not all forms are the same though dude. There are definitely good forms, bad forms, useless forms, and lots and lots and lots of dead ones. How many forms set have there been in the long history of all martial arts…hundreds? The best ones have survived but I’m sure plenty of crappy ones persist.

I will agree learning all the techniques of a style and then never extracting, drilling, and doing live fighting with them is a big waste of time unless you are a martial arts historian.[/QUOTE]

I mostly agree with what you’re saying here. Your opening sentence about being ‘good forms’ and ‘bad forms’ has some truth to it.

65

[quote=ADM;2408491]Rabbit: I would probably stop making gross assumptions about me, because it’s not helping your argument.
[/quote]

“Our” argument (I am never alone on this one…)never needed my help, it just needs your clarity.

You just compared kata and sparring again, which is like comparing apples to applesauce. In my CMA for instance, we learn the techniques in forms, practice the forms to increase the speed and power in the techniques, then we drill them, then we learn to spar with them, gloves, mouthguard, and all. Kata/forms-only people who don’t do this are kidding themselves and can’t fight.

[quote=ADM;2408491]
Secondly, BJJ … for me at least, I’ve only been doing for 1.5 - 2 years now. Somewhere in between that. It pales in comparision to my striking background. And I train with many people who use it as a cross-training art, some do Goju-karate, and many of those enjoy their Kata.

And lastly … talkin’ bout Kata man. Kata …[/quote]

I have no disrespect for BJJ at all, but even BJJ’s roots in JMA owe something to kata.

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My experience, and I bet the fact majority of people had similar ones, was this. Learn forms, then learn to spar with very different techniques. Occasionally do bunkai, without ever extracting anything used for sparring.

With the right forms, you could interpret moves, drill, and apply in sparring. It is still a back ass way of teaching shit though. Why not go direct? Don’t tell me about the amazing way of passing on information. If you spend the time to drill and learn to apply a move, you will not need a form to remember it.

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[quote=searcher66071;2408479]I have read the entire thread, but have have my $0.02 worth to throw in. In most styles, I feelt hat kata/forms/patterns/tul/hyung are only good for exercising. No hidden technique, not to be used exactly as estalished. In the styles I teach, minus Parker Kenpo, the forms we use are for conditioning, helping with breathing on techniques(which can also be done during other aspects of training), to develop balance, help with focus, and various other aspects of training, but nothing mystical. As many styles develop their self defense techniques from the application of techniques found within the kata, I find that use to make kata worth nothing but impractical.

Now, Parker Kenpo may be the only exception I have seen to the above stated use of kata. Parker Kenpo has 4 of what we call basics forms. These forms were created to help students with putting their basics into play. We also have “sets” that are used to develop one apsect of the system(kicking, striking, stance,…). We also have our “technique” forms which were created form the self defense techniques of the system. This is the complete opposite of how other systems use their kata. Each technique kata deals with a different aspect of our self defense(strike defense, choke defense, weapons,…). This defnately make Parker Kenpo as well as other styles of Kenpo form the Ed Parker lineage to be a complete about face.

I do not place my well being or that of my students on the use of kata techniques and we use kata mostly for the development of other things outside of self defense. I find them useful, but in a limited role.

I hope this helps you no matter which side of the fence you are on. I also hope that this topic will be put to rest as it has been beat to death. Thank you and have a great day.[/quote]

I am trying very deliberately not to facilitate the old debates about forms SEarcher… You mention Parker who as an example, a prime one, did something very different with Forms yes? including looking at them backwards and fowards…

I know sometimes if a point has some complexity to it it gets hijacked and put into the familiar grooves, debates… so I should have known better I spose…

I will try once more then I too am done with this thread original Op or not ok:

My question is do we understand how kata is really used? If in fact it is a way to transmit with the most efficiency, the characteristics of the art so it can be put into a form that can be passed on to others and is the primary purpose in passing on the knowlege… period.

Accordingly then kata is most assuredly not for training a person how to fight

it is not for teaching only hidden applications.

It is not for teaching the individual or collective techniques of the art exclusively in a vacuum.

but rather it is a way for a teacher to ensure that in a complete package all the idiocyncracies, stylistic concerns, techniques, philosophy and application, strategies of the art are put somewhere in a complete package so that any teacher of the art can open the package pull out the parts they want to emphasize and teach them.

So no this is not a thread about the need for forms to train it is a thread about forms as a way to transmit intangables about an art that can not necessarily be written down, will not make a better fighter, etc, but will allow a founder to transmit his art non-verbally so that he/she can ensure that generations from now his art will be the art he created, or at least will evolve from that art.

Would it make people feel better if the title of the thread was Kata as a way to teach students the particular characteristics of an art which virtually in no shape or form will allow said student to become a better fighter, a better athlete, or a better teacher but which will ensure that what the student teaches is the art which the form is a part of… that might be a little long for a title guys.

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[quote=FriendlyFire;2408503]
If you spend the time to drill and learn to apply a move, you will not need a form to remember it.[/quote]

Ah but…what about if you wanted to teach a fresh, nubile martial arts virgin, who hasn’t put in that time drilling? First you show him the “pure” form, whether its how to punch or step or clinch or a 100 techniques rolled into a kata, and then you set him off down the progression road to true fighting. He might stop using the forms one day when he feels he’s “good enough”, but doing that would probably limit his own ability to pass on those same skills later on…

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[quote=FriendlyFire;2408503]My experience, and I bet the fact majority of people had similar ones, was this. Learn forms, then learn to spar with very different techniques. Occasionally do bunkai, without ever extracting anything used for sparring.

With the right forms, you could interpret moves, drill, and apply in sparring. It is still a back ass way of teaching shit though. Why not go direct? Don’t tell me about the amazing way of passing on information. If you spend the time to drill and learn to apply a move, you will not need a form to remember it.[/quote]

I like you FF… in your venom and fire you seem to understand my point you actually make a point of saying “passing on information.” Bravo!! XX and hugs baby!!

Ok so as a PRACTICIONER of the art I have no qualms at all with your conclusion. Now think as the founder of the art. When your fighter kicks ass and the concepts you want emphasized and reinterpeted in your art are to be passed on and on, well isn’t your concern a little different than the guy who does not need a form to remember? Yes. You want that guy, or that guy’s teacher to remember a form so that your art is recognizable and so that the subtle intangables that you want to get across can be represented in your art, even if they are not understood by the person teaching the art.

One aspect of kata is that if things are in the kata, even if they are not understood they can be revealed and brought out later by a gifter teacher even when people fight differently and things change yes? so that what looks stupid in feudal Japan (what retarded person would pull a guard on a castle floor? with knives present?) can be brought out later when things change and people fight differently.

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[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2408472] Most of the people who think certain forms movements are retarded have no clue as to how the technique is actually used, they will think something is a block when it is actually a throw, or will think something is a strike when it is a lock, and so on. The reason is that the techniques in a form are connected to other techniques that are related

[/QUOTE]

Oh, but how does one KNOW this move is a block (there are no blocks) or a strike as opposed to a throw or a lock? Kungfu makes you stupid:new_infin.

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[quote=W. Rabbit;2408490]Here here.

I don’t know if literacy helps though…that would be saying that reading is a good way to learn a martial art. Even watching two dimensional DVDs is not the same thing as learning a physical form set and having those techniques corrected in person by someone who knows the intricacies of the form so that when used they actually do something useful as opposed to utterly fail.[/quote]

that would be the other side of the coin… I do think that the efficiency of kata is remarkable… it is the same argument that Fingarette uses to discuss Confucian ritual sense. As social animals humans have evolved a lot farther than any other way and it sort of goes to follow that kata is an outgrowth of that and is accordingly very efficient for transmitting the art totally.

I guess what it cannot really do is take each sense of application and appeal to it independently. But that is not after all what it was designed for. That would be the mistake people make though.

72

Seriously, this discussion is so old.
I see Kata helping you learn some footwork and body positioning
I see Kata being a great way to preserve techniques and motions through history
(Diesel put it very well)
I see Kata being good at teaching you to keep your knees bent (which is pretty damn basic)

Thats it. Seriously.

Either way, its fucking moot. Katas can be fun and look really nice. If you wanna keep training Katas thats fine. We have video cameras now and there is absolutely nothing in terms of fight training we are losing out on from not doing Kata after your first 3 monhts of training. discussion end. ARGH!!

73

no you didn’t…no you didn’t…

it’s all because how something looks in form and what it’s used for are often different things and not something a casual viewer would notice, not because they are “teh secret deadly hidden technique” but just because looking at them in forms is out of context.

74

W. Rabbit, if the guy was actually taught the moves, forms would not help him remember them later on. If he would forget the individual punch technique, he would forget the sequences and techniques in a form.

Dsimon, here we hit a wall. I am of the camp that essentially there is a best way of doing every technique. There is a best way to punch, kick, throw. That arts that train with aliveness develop almost identical technique, and ‘style’ is a function of the fighter himself; what techniques he learned, what techniques he likes to use. So the idea of having your own ‘art’ and passing it is silly to me. Subtle intangibles are worked out in sparring, not passed on through kata. I treat fighting as a science, you treat it as an almost mystical art form with deep importance in its history.

Edit: Great god damn point on video cameras, and holy shit this thread is moving so fast…

75

can I hijack this post in the name of seriousness!!?

Here is my own opinion and one that might legitimately (as opposed to the illegitimate argument about this thread being a dead horse cause it is about forms) piss off a few posters.

I believe that kata can reveal things to people. Thats right… You can take the movements and designs in a form and play with them and develop (HInka as it is called in the Booj) a capacity to understand applications and ideas that never would have occured to you before. I believe that a really gifted teacher could conceviably make it so that there are things that can be revealed to the practicioner as he becomes familiar with the art.

These are not necessarily hidden applications either. they are things like efficiency of movement, techniqes that are part of the form that one can see after using the technique, ect. Kata is revealing. Yu are playing with a similar set of movements as some one did way before your days and both of you will get similar and different revelations out of the forms.

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[quote=FriendlyFire;2408517]W. Rabbit, if the guy was actually taught the moves, forms would not help him remember them later on. If he would forget the individual punch technique, he would forget the sequences and techniques in a form.
.[/quote]

The funny thing is I haven’t trained in Shotokan Karate in 25 years but I can still remember many techniques, not because of kumite but because I did the kata.

So you see? I threw the karate kata away in the end too (I stopped training), but look at how what that kata taught stayed with me decades later.

Kata/forms are a teaching tool. You can probably throw them away after some dedicated practice (Bruce Lee’s JKD philosophy espoused that right?), but that doesn’t mean they’re value-less to new students, and we always want new students in the martial arts. So if we want to teach the arts we’ve learned that are based on form sets, we need to practice them to maintain them, really, so we can pass them off to the next group of students.

77

This argument in wrong, given the martial arts that do not use forms and are still passed on no problems. You could pass all the fighting techniques without the forms, and save training time. Check fucking mate.

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“But it suffers from the same problems in some ways that the “telephone” game does”

No it does not. The people learning Kata spent a long time learning them it is not like they were shown once then repeated it like the game. Also you underestimating the power of oral cultures to transmit infomation based on how you as a modern western person living in a society based on writing can do it, it is down right ignorance.

"Kano was among other things of gifted intellect.

So why did he choose to incorporate these forms Bearclaw? to what end sir?"

The end depends on the Kata most were to teach principals (Nage no Kata, Ju no Kata, Kime no Kata). Whereas some where to preserve techniques and principals (Koshiki no Kata). Some where to teach character and promote physical fitness (Seiryoku Zenyo Kokumin Taiku no Kata, Joshi Judo Gonshinho).

The problem with Karate Kata is that it does not show any semblence to how you would actually fight whereas the Judo Kata does. For example seoi nage in the Nage no Kata is preformed off a downward blow and the Tori catches the strike and blends with the energy and throws using the momentum this can be applied easily to numerous situations eg high collar grab. The Karate Kata Taikyoku Shodan has a equally sound principal block/parry a strike like mae geri move foward attack with a punch and you see this alot in Kyokushin tourneys but it is done with an uppercut or other punch not a stepping down in to zenkuashidachi(sp?) chambering one hand at the chest punch and that is the basic Kata it gets more overly complicated and further away from actuall application as you get to the more advanced Katas.

79

Illegal move, I drink your checkmate and will continue playing.

Forms-less MA and Forms-based MA both survive because of how their lineages passed on the knowledge…it’s bound to be different depending on how many students they had, how many techniques they have, etc. Some systems have many, many more techniques than others. Some don’t require kata at all, but that doesn’t mean that those that do don’t rely heavily on their kata to “keep track of things”.

The gung gi fuk fu kuen of hung ga has somewhere over 100 movements in it and it is just the learner’s set, and is performed in about 2-3m. What better way is there to pass on those 100 techniques than a fast set of calisthenics you can learn in a month or two and remember forever if you practice it even once a week? As Dsimon keeps pointing out its a highly compact, and thus efficient way of sending techniques down the wire to new students.

The arts that don’t rely on kata/form sets seem generally seem to contain fewer techniques (Judo is a good example I think there are a relatively small number of meat and potatoes throws and holds and you can build on that foundation) and there is no need for long kata sets. In the case of judo the art is “transmitted” via drills, 2 man forms practice, and onward to the fun stuff like randori.

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[quote=FriendlyFire;2408517]W. Rabbit, if the guy was actually taught the moves, forms would not help him remember them later on. If he would forget the individual punch technique, he would forget the sequences and techniques in a form.

Dsimon, here we hit a wall. I am of the camp that essentially there is a best way of doing every technique. There is a best way to punch, kick, throw. That arts that train with aliveness develop almost identical technique, and ‘style’ is a function of the fighter himself; what techniques he learned, what techniques he likes to use. So the idea of having your own ‘art’ and passing it is silly to me. Subtle intangibles are worked out in sparring, not passed on through kata. I treat fighting as a science, you treat it as an almost mystical art form with deep importance in its history.

Edit: Great god damn point on video cameras, and holy shit this thread is moving so fast…[/quote]

I don’t think the two are exclusive. Fighters train the same way. Always did always will really. you can never train as a fighter and not fight to train.

Let me guess you don’t think that the best way to punch might change? for example, with a glove, without?

That would be our difference really. I believe that things like how to best punch do sometimes change. You I am guessing do not… let me guess, fighters are the best now because they have worked things out and come to a pinnicle of evolution regarding how to deliver a punch after many moons of evolution. yes?