Martial Arts Forms their true purpose?

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Trollshido
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[quote=helmutlvx;2408421]@Dsimon3387
Could you give specific examples of said subtleties and set-ups?

Did you read that big long thread about how Machida’s striking is also influenced by Muay Thai and boxing?

There is no such things as a “Goju punch” or a “Shotokan punch”. There is a type of punching that starts from the hiki-te position that has become associate with the term “karate punch”.

Karateka don’t always punch like that.

“Might, might might” don’t make right. If you’re going to make absolute statements, make absolute supplmentary rebuttals.

Oh wait. You’re saying Machida learned how to fight from the Shotokan kata his dad taught him.

I thought you said kata AREN’T SUPPOSED TO BE USED FOR FIGHTING.

edit: Your style field is empty. What do you train in and what rank do you hold?[/quote]

I didn’t say how Macheda learned how to fight I used him as an example.

Example of what I am saying:

A lot of Goju guys I knew backfist vertically, in other sytles the backfist comes from the horizontal position. Goju also has certain circular blocks which are retained from Chinese sources… some of these are in forms and retained as an idoicycracy of the art.

Now more general examples:

Shotokan footwork is such that it is only linear. Okinawan karate has circular movements that are in katas such as (Nan-te? its been a while).

I am not talking about the chamber of the punch I am talking about the way a punch is used in c0mbat the set up. Originally in Shotokan sparring a lunge and reverse chambered punch were emphasized at the exclusion of other punching techniques.

well among other things I trained in Sho Rn Ryu for about 15 years or so and have a Nidan in a fighting club. Ask your teacher about Riley Hawkins as my teacher was under Riley.

Your teacher if he is in Virginia will know of Riley trust me… and then you can come bac here and ask about my other ranks if you need to know ok sweet buns?

42

I’m done in this thread.

I don’t have the time to keep arguing so I’m not going to bother. You ducked a lot of my questions and offered up anecdotal and general examples with no outside substantiation. Each time you were corrected, it was simply not referenced anymore.

I respect the time you put into training, but I still think you’re an idiot.

By the way, I wouldn’t be surprised if my sensei knew of Riley Hawkins since I read he’s from Baltimore.

Any further posts from me will include pictures of dead horses, HYPNOTOAD, LOLcats, or some combination thereof.

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[quote=helmutlvx;2408382]Just because I decided to walk into a loaded question doesn’t make me ignorant.

Buying into t3h anci3nt d34dly is the more revealing sign of ignorance. Kata are created, changed, and thrown out all the time.

The human capability for error is also possible in the transmission of kata. Small changes create new “meaning” to the movements and after so many “hundreds” of years, I doubt TMAers in the modern era perform kata exactly like how they were done back then.

You are a shithead for making this thread and beating the fuck out of a long dead horse. Your opinions are metaphysical New Age horseshit.[/quote]

I don’t think New Age mysticism and ancient physical forms have a lot in common, unless you are talking about kung fu hippies. I have met a few. And I have met very powerful gong fu artists who exhibit a SHITLOAD of power when performing forms. The difference between watching a dainty wushu form vs, a powerful set performed by a conditioned fighter is staggering.

Kata/forms are continually changed because they are an art form that masters have evolve over time. It’s like evolution, the better sets/forms contain surviving techniques, dead sets/forgotten forms belong to antiquity.

Human capability for error is exactly why one studies these forms from venerable masters and not from books or DVDs.

No informed student of forms will ever claim they teach you to fight. They are however infinitely better for learning martial arts older than 100 years, since books, scrolls, cave drawings, and other shit would be absolutely worthless.

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… ahem clears throat

…

Fuck KATA!

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EDIT: Fuck this thread, W Rabbit just showed up. Have fun kids.

ADM, I’m with you.

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[quote=ADM;2408452]… ahem clears throat

…

Fuck KATA![/quote]

Holy shit, is THAT what he says here??:

YouTube- Fuck Canada

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Kata is almost a complete waste of time. Honestly, that line is not even CLOSE to harsh enough.

All this bullshit talk you’re sprouting about being evolved over time, is complete and utter RUBBISH! If they were evolving they would have gotten rid of it all together and added more bag work.

I also said ‘almost’ complete waste of time because you can get a work out from it if you hit (the air) hard, etc. You can gain balance and control over your techniques. The problem lays with the fact that you can do all those things BETTER without Kata.

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[quote=ADM;2408460]
I also said ‘almost’ complete waste of time because you can get a work out from it if you hit (the air) hard, etc. You can gain balance and control over your techniques. The problem lays with the fact that you can do all those things BETTER without Kata.[/quote]

I thought the problem was kata techniques were mostly ridiculous and retarded moves you can never ever use without drastically ‘interpreting’ them. I have seen some black belts do that to an amazing level.

If you just did the moves you used in a fight, it would look like shadow boxing, just the same shadow boxing every time.

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[quote=ADM;2408460]Kata is almost a complete waste of time. Honestly, that line is not even CLOSE to harsh enough.

All this bullshit talk you’re sprouting about being evolved over time, is complete and utter RUBBISH! If they were evolving they would have gotten rid of it all together and added more bag work.

I also said ‘almost’ complete waste of time because you can get a work out from it if you hit (the air) hard, etc. You can gain balance and control over your techniques. The problem lays with the fact that you can do all those things BETTER without Kata.[/quote]

Question for you: how did you learn your martial art. You were shown, in form, everything. Artistry is all about form. Whether your forms are ancient calisthenics, or boxing footwork patterns, or 900 techniques to punch a bag, you’re using some kind of form developed way before you were born. These forms are not for fighting, but for transmitting physically the arts. You will find the same kind of forms transmission in the works of Picasso, Monet, and so on.

Look at yoga. Are those forms useless? Would yoga have survived as it has throughout the ages if it had only been written down? Could you learn proper yoga from a book or a scroll?

Forms are a very useful combination of condition calisthenics and instruction manual for individual techniques, which can then be individually extracted (like bunkai in JMA), analyzed, drilled, introduced in san da, and eventually trained for real combat. Training in forms is a very freeing form of exercise, same as punching the shit out of a speed bag is a freeing form of exercise. Neither one teaches you how to fight, but they are a great way of getting there.

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Not if I said “do it this way, this way every time, in this stance, every time” it wouldn’t.

Then people get all hung up on “how long do I hold this for” and stupid crap that really doesn’t matter as if it were actually used in a fight (street or tournament) that thought will NEVER, EVER, cross your mind.

Nothing ridiculous about blocking and counter punching, or something as simple as a punch to the head.

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[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2408464]Question for you: how did you learn your martial art. You were shown, in form, everything. Artistry is all about form. Whether your forms are ancient calisthenics, or boxing footwork patterns, or 900 techniques to punch a bag, you’re using some kind of form developed way before you were born. These forms are not for fighting, but for transmitting physically the arts. You will find the same kind of forms transmission in the works of Picasso, Monet, and so on.

Look at yoga. Are those forms useless? Would yoga have survived as it has throughout the ages if it had only been written down? Could you learn proper yoga from a book or a scroll?

Forms are a very useful combination of condition calisthenics and instruction manual for individual techniques, which can then be individually extracted (like bunkai in JMA), analyzed, drilled, introduced in san da, and eventually trained for real combat. Training in forms is a very freeing form of exercise, same as punching the shit out of a speed bag is a freeing form of exercise. Neither one teaches you how to fight, but they are a great way of getting there.[/QUOTE]

To answer your questions:

Firstly, we’re talking about KATA here, not fucking paintings or anything stupid like that. You wanna get hung up on the ‘real meaning’ of Form and shit like that, please just go away, leave this thread, this forum, no one gives a fuck. We’re talking … about … KATA. You know, do a certain set of moves, in order, in specific way. Basically the same shit that can be taught but hitting bags or people (sparring).

Secondly, Yoga? … you serious? GTFO man.

Lastly, as I said in my previous post, which obviously you didn’t bother reading too much into, there are BETTER WAYS (read: MUCH better) to train in isolation. In BJJ we isolate many things, we isolate how to take someones back, and then the finer technique of sinking in the Rear Naked Choke. You can’t POSSIBLY sit there and tell me that I can learn that better by doing a kata.

I’ll agree it’s better then nothing, it honestly is. But you’re reaching dude.

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That “interpretation” you’re speaking of is what I think JMAs call “bunkai” and is the missing link between forms and utility in fighting. It’s also what a lot of forms-hating folks are completely missing the point on, and this argument continues ad infinitum simply because they fail to see the forms in their own arts. Form is everywhere in martial arts, whether you use kata/etc or not, form is there somewhere, even in the “formless” arts.

Retarded how? Most of the people who think certain forms movements are retarded have no clue as to how the technique is actually used, they will think something is a block when it is actually a throw, or will think something is a strike when it is a lock, and so on. The reason is that the techniques in a form are connected to other techniques that are related

You don’t perform forms to practice doing Killer Instinct combos from the form. You also don’t expect to do anything resembling “exaggerated” techniques in real combat.

The forms are a 4D dictionary of techniques, each of which has to be looked at individually before you begin to make ANY assessment of the combat validity of any one of them.

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oh ffs … Bunkai … yeah Kyokushin doesn’t have ANY of that. Wow I feel enlightened now!

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[quote=helmutlvx;2408444]I’m done in this thread.

I don’t have the time to keep arguing so I’m not going to bother. You ducked a lot of my questions and offered up anecdotal and general examples with no outside substantiation. Each time you were corrected, it was simply not referenced anymore.

I respect the time you put into training, but I still think you’re an idiot.

By the way, I wouldn’t be surprised if my sensei knew of Riley Hawkins since I read he’s from Baltimore.

Any further posts from me will include pictures of dead horses, HYPNOTOAD, LOLcats, or some combination thereof.[/quote]

No fuck that shit…

I gave you multitudes of examples you just keep asking, you are butt hurt because you went into attack mode… I am usually one to let these things go but fuck no!

I gave you an example and more everytime you asked for it. you can think anything you want about me thats not my issue

you are familiar with irony yes? why don’t you come back here tomorrow and tell us a little about forms and Riley haha. Your teacher will know who he is I assure you of that.

You made two mistakes that you have to account for in my book:

You said I didn’t give examples when as people like IIF can attest… i give way too many examples!!! if you had a problem with my example you could have said what the problem was you didn’t.

You questioned my knowledge base… thats a real bad move. You will find that out though haha. You should have kept to questioning me alone and not my background, you brought it into the equation so i will be glad to use it though haha. the only pathetic thing would be to find out your teacher does not know about Riley haha.

You attacked me personally with shit you would never say to my face. Shame on you. No matter who I am shame on you for that. As far as I am concerned I don’t know if you are a seven foot half gorilla half Samoan or the twin brother of “I hit the mats in Judo” chucky, but I always assume the former. You started a flame war from congrats.

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[quote=ADM;2408468]To answer your questions:

Firstly, we’re talking about KATA here, not fucking paintings or anything stupid like that. You wanna get hung up on the ‘real meaning’ of Form and shit like that, please just go away, leave this thread, this forum, no one gives a fuck. We’re talking … about … KATA. You know, do a certain set of moves, in order, in specific way. Basically the same shit that can be taught but hitting bags or people (sparring).
[/quote]

I know exactly what we’re talking about, but you don’t, since you don’t value forms or know what they’re for. And admitting you do use bunkai is akin to saying "my art commonly pulls techniques out of our kata to show students how to fight with them.

If ADM developed the deadly “900 Techniques for Striking Bag”, what would be one of the best ways to record all that and pass it on to endless generations of new students? Yeah…a form set. Even if you made a DVD of it, it’d be a form set.

100% serious. Yoga has form sets that enabled transmissions of an art over centuries and centuries, and the fact that millions still do it means “GTFO man” is a weak counterargument.

“Better” is entirely your opinion and based on no evidence, but a lot of BJJ students do seem to be anti-forms training (anti-TMA in a lot of the BJJ guys I’ve met). I think this is just more “our style is superior”-type indoctrination.

As I understand it, all it took for Royce Gracie to bow out of UFC was he finally took some strikes and that was that. Then he went to learn Muay Thai, and he probably did it starting with some form sets.

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I have read the entire thread, but have have my $0.02 worth to throw in. In most styles, I feelt hat kata/forms/patterns/tul/hyung are only good for exercising. No hidden technique, not to be used exactly as estalished. In the styles I teach, minus Parker Kenpo, the forms we use are for conditioning, helping with breathing on techniques(which can also be done during other aspects of training), to develop balance, help with focus, and various other aspects of training, but nothing mystical. As many styles develop their self defense techniques from the application of techniques found within the kata, I find that use to make kata worth nothing but impractical.

Now, Parker Kenpo may be the only exception I have seen to the above stated use of kata. Parker Kenpo has 4 of what we call basics forms. These forms were created to help students with putting their basics into play. We also have “sets” that are used to develop one apsect of the system(kicking, striking, stance,…). We also have our “technique” forms which were created form the self defense techniques of the system. This is the complete opposite of how other systems use their kata. Each technique kata deals with a different aspect of our self defense(strike defense, choke defense, weapons,…). This defnately make Parker Kenpo as well as other styles of Kenpo form the Ed Parker lineage to be a complete about face.

I do not place my well being or that of my students on the use of kata techniques and we use kata mostly for the development of other things outside of self defense. I find them useful, but in a limited role.

I hope this helps you no matter which side of the fence you are on. I also hope that this topic will be put to rest as it has been beat to death. Thank you and have a great day.

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[quote=ADM;2408468]To answer your questions:

Firstly, we’re talking about KATA here, not fucking paintings or anything stupid like that. You wanna get hung up on the ‘real meaning’ of Form and shit like that, please just go away, leave this thread, this forum, no one gives a fuck. We’re talking … about … KATA. You know, do a certain set of moves, in order, in specific way. Basically the same shit that can be taught but hitting bags or people (sparring).

Secondly, Yoga? … you serious? GTFO man.

Lastly, as I said in my previous post, which obviously you didn’t bother reading too much into, there are BETTER WAYS (read: MUCH better) to train in isolation. In BJJ we isolate many things, we isolate how to take someones back, and then the finer technique of sinking in the Rear Naked Choke. You can’t POSSIBLY sit there and tell me that I can learn that better by doing a kata.

I’ll agree it’s better then nothing, it honestly is. But you’re reaching dude.[/quote]

When you say there are “better ways” you know that is a real possability. I don’t know to me the jury is still open on that question for a number of reasons.

a) people live so much longer today that there is no real sense of urgency about how to preserve the art… The art you reference for example… How long did old man Gracie live? How many generations could he personally teach the art to?

b) Utube and cross training, etc has made it so that we are becoming generic about what techniques apply. Combat is not as varied, it either happens in the school yard or the professionals do it.

c) we have made so many literate people in our society maybe we really don;t need kata.

I reserve judgement though because forms work on so many levels. It is still an incredibly efficient way of transmitting information. Yet people continue to mistake application with forms training… then they state the obvious.

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Obligatory…which form set will be victorious???
KungFu vs. Yoga

YouTube- KungFu vs. Yoga

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Oh snap, using the term ‘bunkai’ changes everything. It was not sparring, it was kumite! Or we just just stay in english for those lucky enough not to been exposed to bunkai.

I’ll give you the best example I have seen. A standard in certain karate forms, the low block. The traditional chambered low block. A basic form starts with a low block, then you step and punch. Now, basic interpretation is it blocks a front kick. Clearly there are more advance techniques hidden in it though. Some people do thing not even recognizable that it came from that motion, but those are to easy. The best one I saw used the chambering motion as a parry, and the blocking motion grabbed the arm into an arm lock, then you stepped forward and applied the lock pushing them down instead of punching.

Even with this though, a rather clever way to use similar movements, when you do the block on it’s own you are not practice the lock at all. No matter how many times you run the form, you won’t get better at throwing the lock. While similar, there are very important details between a block and lock, because you are supposed to run the form with all sorts of hip and wrist twist and pulling the other arm back, fist at hip, to generate blocking power.

That’s how forms go. Most of the techniques in traditional forms are bad for their basic purpose, and advanced hidden shit is not actually practiced when you do a form. How bout you just teach and drill the arm lock? Nah, lets hide it as a block instead! Clearly that is the best way to pass it on. Teaching techniques one at a time with their real application up front would be ridiculous!

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[quote=Dsimon3387;2408485]
c) we have made so many literate people in our society maybe we really don;t need kata.

I reserve judgement though because forms work on so many levels. It is still an incredibly efficient way of transmitting information. Yet people continue to mistake application with forms training… then they state the obvious.[/quote]

Here here.

I don’t know if literacy helps though…that would be saying that reading is a good way to learn a martial art. Even watching two dimensional DVDs is not the same thing as learning a physical form set and having those techniques corrected in person by someone who knows the intricacies of the form so that when used they actually do something useful as opposed to utterly fail.