long range shooting (300+ yards) do you practice it? how far, how often? with what?

Martial Arts Training Forums The Armory: Weapons, Military, LEO, and Self Defen
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i’ve been putting 100 .22LR rifle rounds down range per week, and while my freestanding groups could use more work, with my elbows on the bench i’m shooting nice tight groups (at 50 ft which is the max for my city-boy range here in NYC.) i noticed that i really enjoy shooting at distance, and want to play with it more. i was going to pick up a remington 700 in .308 for deer hunting anyway, so i was thinking of setting up one that would also be a good long range shooter (assuming that the two are not mutually exclusive.)

i did some poking around and if i’m willing to get in a car, i have some decent 200-300 yard ranges available on long island, and if i can get up near albany there’s a place that has 300,600 and 1000 yard setups (on limited days, and i’d have to weasel my way into the club somehow, membership is cheap but you have to be invited by a member.) so i am not completely without places to shoot, although i will be lucky to get one 1000 yd day in per year i could get a bunch of 200-300 yard days in and several 600 yard days.)

just wondering what our resident experts think about the topic and if they have experience. any suggested classes on the subject (i know these guys offer what looks to be a really good multi-day class http://www.snipercentral.com/sniper-central-precision-marksman-school-basic are they any good? other options?) if i’m willing to take such a class, should i go in completely fresh to long range shooting, or get some practice in first at longer distances?

if anyone wants to get really crazy specific, why do some people suggest shortening the stock 26" barrel to 24" or even 20"? is that only useful for a rifle that has potential urban use purposes at 100-300 yard ranges and to make the rifle easier to carry/maneuver?

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Once you start getting past 300 yards your going to need a ballistics calculator/chart.
I am at work so virtually every link to a free chart and how to use them is blocked.
However you can certainly find one with a bit of googling.

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[QUOTE=Ming Loyalist;2877232]i’ve been putting 100 .22LR rifle rounds down range per week, and while my freestanding groups could use more work, with my elbows on the bench i’m shooting nice tight groups (at 50 ft which is the max for my city-boy range here in NYC.) i noticed that i really enjoy shooting at distance, and want to play with it more. i was going to pick up a remington 700 in .308 for deer hunting anyway, so i was thinking of setting up one that would also be a good long range shooter (assuming that the two are not mutually exclusive.)

i did some poking around and if i’m willing to get in a car, i have some decent 200-300 yard ranges available on long island, and if i can get up near albany there’s a place that has 300,600 and 1000 yard setups (on limited days, and i’d have to weasel my way into the club somehow, membership is cheap but you have to be invited by a member.) so i am not completely without places to shoot, although i will be lucky to get one 1000 yd day in per year i could get a bunch of 200-300 yard days in and several 600 yard days.)

just wondering what our resident experts think about the topic and if they have experience. any suggested classes on the subject (i know these guys offer what looks to be a really good multi-day class http://www.snipercentral.com/sniper-central-precision-marksman-school-basic are they any good? other options?) if i’m willing to take such a class, should i go in completely fresh to long range shooting, or get some practice in first at longer distances?

if anyone wants to get really crazy specific, why do some people suggest shortening the stock 26" barrel to 24" or even 20"? is that only useful for a rifle that has potential urban use purposes at 100-300 yard ranges and to make the rifle easier to carry/maneuver?[/QUOTE]

Well, a couple of things come to mind.
1.) Shooting a .308 (high powered rifle) is a bit different than shooting a .22 rimfire). The muzzle blast and recoil are a LOT more, which makes it more difficult to shoot without flinching. Now, a .308 recoil isn’t bad in a normal weight rifle (lets say 7.5 pounds plus loaded with scope), however, you will have to concentrate a lot more on how you hold the rifle and your trigger control. So it’s going to take some time to get proficient even at ranges less than 300 yards.

If you cut the barrel down to 20", get ready for substantial muzzle blast as compared to a 22" (pretty much standard on bolt action .308 Win. rifles). I know that from direct experience. My youngest son has a Savage .308 with a 20" barrel, and compared to his brother’s rifle or my wife’s, with 22" tubes, the blast is noticeably great at 20". I also had a 20" barrel on a .308 years ago, same story.

So I’d go with a standard 22" barrel. I don’t think lopping off 2" gets you any real advantage on compactness for the zombie/ISIS apocalypse, either.

2.) IMO, you need to get proficient with the your rifle at standard ranges (lets say less than 300 yards, which is still quite a poke from field positions). Learn the trigger (and get it adjusted/fixed to be crisp if need be, loading, unloading, reloading, stuff like that. Shooting with a sling as well. Lots of guys just shoot off of a bench rest and call it good, but then start missing when they have to shoot off of their knees, sitting, prone, offhand, etc. You can get snap caps to practice at home (just make sure to close the curtains!) all of that plus dry firing for trigger and breath control.

3.) Yeah, get some lessons. You might look into the standard NRA rifle courses first, as they might be cheaper and will cover the basics. It also shows you are being responsible and serious about gun safety/handling rather than going for the “sniper” schools stuff right off the bat.

4.) If you get a Remington 700, you can customize it to your hearts content, but I would suggest you keep it stock, other than getting the trigger worked on if need be. Without a decent trigger (3-4 pounds and crisp), you will have a hard time learning to shoot well. You can spend more money on a scope than the rifle, LOL, if you go the high speed low drag sniper/dial twirling route.

5.) it just like martial arts…basics/fundamentals is what matters most. Keep that in mind.

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[QUOTE=goodlun;2877235]Once you start getting past 300 yards your going to need a ballistics calculator/chart.
I am at work so virtually every link to a free chart and how to use them is blocked.
However you can certainly find one with a bit of googling.[/QUOTE]

You need to shoot your weapon out to whatever you intend to be your maximum range with the load you intend to shoot. Calculators can get you in the ballpark, but so can just shooting in 100 or 50 yard increments and recording results.

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The other thing, you might consider getting a Savage instead of a Remington. Reason being, Accutrigger, plus barrel nut. If you get a .308, you can switch out the barrel relatively easy and cheaply to another round. For example, from .308 to .243 Win. because you develop a flinch, or ev3en .223 (you can change out the bolt heads relatively easy as well).

In fact, I suggest you get a .223 Rem. (cheap ammo and no recoil) Savage in a full sized rifle, then you can move up to .308 or something in between.

Plus, I bet it’s a way you can own more than one rifle, so to speak, without getting extra New York licenses. Federally at least, barrels do not have serial numbers. You have one action, and switch out barrels and/or bolt heads…

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Ming, just to confirm its for target shooting right?

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[QUOTE=Kovacs;2877243]Ming, just to confirm its for target shooting right?[/QUOTE]

target shooting is my main purpose for all my firearms training, but i could see some unlikely potential situations where i would want to snipe something living at distance. it seems like the sort of skill that just might be useful.

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[QUOTE=BKR;2877239]Well, a couple of things come to mind.
1.) Shooting a .308 (high powered rifle) is a bit different than shooting a .22 rimfire). The muzzle blast and recoil are a LOT more, which makes it more difficult to shoot without flinching. Now, a .308 recoil isn’t bad in a normal weight rifle (lets say 7.5 pounds plus loaded with scope), however, you will have to concentrate a lot more on how you hold the rifle and your trigger control. So it’s going to take some time to get proficient even at ranges less than 300 yards.

If you cut the barrel down to 20", get ready for substantial muzzle blast as compared to a 22" (pretty much standard on bolt action .308 Win. rifles). I know that from direct experience. My youngest son has a Savage .308 with a 20" barrel, and compared to his brother’s rifle or my wife’s, with 22" tubes, the blast is noticeably great at 20". I also had a 20" barrel on a .308 years ago, same story.

So I’d go with a standard 22" barrel. I don’t think lopping off 2" gets you any real advantage on compactness for the zombie/ISIS apocalypse, either.

2.) IMO, you need to get proficient with the your rifle at standard ranges (lets say less than 300 yards, which is still quite a poke from field positions). Learn the trigger (and get it adjusted/fixed to be crisp if need be, loading, unloading, reloading, stuff like that. Shooting with a sling as well. Lots of guys just shoot off of a bench rest and call it good, but then start missing when they have to shoot off of their knees, sitting, prone, offhand, etc. You can get snap caps to practice at home (just make sure to close the curtains!) all of that plus dry firing for trigger and breath control.

3.) Yeah, get some lessons. You might look into the standard NRA rifle courses first, as they might be cheaper and will cover the basics. It also shows you are being responsible and serious about gun safety/handling rather than going for the “sniper” schools stuff right off the bat.

4.) If you get a Remington 700, you can customize it to your hearts content, but I would suggest you keep it stock, other than getting the trigger worked on if need be. Without a decent trigger (3-4 pounds and crisp), you will have a hard time learning to shoot well. You can spend more money on a scope than the rifle, LOL, if you go the high speed low drag sniper/dial twirling route.

5.) it just like martial arts…basics/fundamentals is what matters most. Keep that in mind.[/QUOTE]

awesome points and all sound like good advice i should follow. i will look into the savage rifles as well. FYI the stock barrel seems to be 26" on a remington 700.

[QUOTE=BKR;2877242]The other thing, you might consider getting a Savage instead of a Remington. Reason being, Accutrigger, plus barrel nut. If you get a .308, you can switch out the barrel relatively easy and cheaply to another round. For example, from .308 to .243 Win. because you develop a flinch, or ev3en .223 (you can change out the bolt heads relatively easy as well).

In fact, I suggest you get a .223 Rem. (cheap ammo and no recoil) Savage in a full sized rifle, then you can move up to .308 or something in between.

Plus, I bet it’s a way you can own more than one rifle, so to speak, without getting extra New York licenses. Federally at least, barrels do not have serial numbers. You have one action, and switch out barrels and/or bolt heads…[/QUOTE]

NYC has this funny thing about only letting you buy ammo for the guns you have registered, so that would be an issue, but i’m not sure if that’s the case on long island where i would actually be doing the shooting, ammo buying (and probably keeping the rifle, cause shooting something like that at a 50 foot range seems silly.)

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Savage rifles tend to be a bit less expensive as well. Don’t get me wrong, Remington 700 is fine, and there are a lot of used ones on the market.

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[QUOTE=Ming Loyalist;2877259]awesome points and all sound like good advice i should follow. i will look into the savage rifles as well. FYI the stock barrel seems to be 26" on a remington 700.

NYC has this funny thing about only letting you buy ammo for the guns you have registered, so that would be an issue, but i’m not sure if that’s the case on long island where i would actually be doing the shooting, ammo buying (and probably keeping the rifle.)[/QUOTE]

You must be looking at a specialized version of the 700, a Sendero or some sort of Varmint model ? I’m see .308 win with 24" barrels, although the BDL and CDL don’t have .308 listed.

The Varmint model has .308 in 26" barrel. http://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-700/model-700-sps-varmint

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[QUOTE=BKR;2877260]Savage rifles tend to be a bit less expensive as well. Don’t get me wrong, Remington 700 is fine, and there are a lot of used ones on the market.[/QUOTE]

yeah i see a lot of guys on the reddit long range subreddit building up savage rifles, so they’re obviously a fine choice.

[QUOTE=BKR;2877261]You must be looking at a specialized version of the 700, a Sendero or some sort of Varmint model ? I’m see .308 win with 24" barrels, although the BDL and CDL don’t have .308 listed.

The Varmint model has .308 in 26" barrel. http://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-700/model-700-sps-varmint[/QUOTE]

i was just basing it off of the base model that the sniper school guys will build for people (i figured they probably know a thing or two about a nice rifle.) from what you said it probably is the varmint model that they use as a base.

i think i’ll try to get a rifle class or two in and maybe even rent some rifles before i invest in anything. it would be smart to maybe buy and/or take more advanced training in a year or so.

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[QUOTE=Ming Loyalist;2877267]yeah i see a lot of guys on the reddit long range subreddit building up savage rifles, so they’re obviously a fine choice.

i was just basing it off of the base model that the sniper school guys will build for people (i figured they probably know a thing or two about a nice rifle.) from what you said it probably is the varmint model that they use as a base.

i think i’ll try to get a rifle class or two in and maybe even rent some rifles before i invest in anything. it would be smart to maybe buy and/or take more advanced training in a year or so.[/QUOTE]

LOL, yeah, I bet they will build you a rifle…sounds like BJJ training…

Learn to shoot well first, then get a fancy rifle if you want to spend more Jew gold, grow a beard, twirl dials and wear cool sunglasses.

Just renting/borrowing at the range sounds like a good idea, although you can’t dry-fire and “snap in” at home. Probably not as bad for you as getting a technical blue belt, but you do need some training so you know what to do and how.

Savage rifles have a good reputation. Even the “cheap ones” (Like Savage Axis) are quite accurate, although the Axis does not come with the Accu-Trigger. It would likely shoot way better than you are capable of for quite some time.

My son hit a small buck at over 200 yards with his, shooting prone in the snow last November. I can smack clay pigeons with it regularly at 220 or so yards using cheap factory ammo. I do that when he misses and complains “something is wrong with my rifle”, LOL ! he is left handed, and so is the rifle, so I shoot left handed to prove the point.

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http://www.nrainstructors.org/SearchResults.aspx?State=y&SearchState=NY&id=9%2C2%2C47%2C41%2C8%2C1%2C7%2C3%2C41&bsa=&youth=&women=

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[QUOTE=BKR;2877276]LOL, yeah, I bet they will build you a rifle…sounds like BJJ training…

Learn to shoot well first, then get a fancy rifle if you want to spend more Jew gold, grow a beard, twirl dials and wear cool sunglasses.

Just renting/borrowing at the range sounds like a good idea, although you can’t dry-fire and “snap in” at home. Probably not as bad for you as getting a technical blue belt, but you do need some training so you know what to do and how.

Savage rifles have a good reputation. Even the “cheap ones” (Like Savage Axis) are quite accurate, although the Axis does not come with the Accu-Trigger. It would likely shoot way better than you are capable of for quite some time.

My son hit a small buck at over 200 yards with his, shooting prone in the snow last November. I can smack clay pigeons with it regularly at 220 or so yards using cheap factory ammo. I do that when he misses and complains “something is wrong with my rifle”, LOL ! he is left handed, and so is the rifle, so I shoot left handed to prove the point.[/QUOTE]

looks like something like this http://www.mrgundealer.com/product.savage-law-enforcement-10-fcp-bolt-223-rem-24-41-syn-stk-black-15 could be used to shoot a few thousand rounds and then re-barreled in 6.5 creedmoor with a kit from these guys http://www.eabco.com/savagebarrels.htm

[QUOTE=BKR;2877291]http://www.nrainstructors.org/SearchResults.aspx?State=y&SearchState=NY&id=9%2C2%2C47%2C41%2C8%2C1%2C7%2C3%2C41&bsa=&youth=&women=[/QUOTE]

yeah i’m all over classes of any type. we have the pistol one at my range coming up but i can’t register for that until i get my license, same for the tactical shotgun class. i’ll ask about the rifle class.

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for the record i am now planning on renting/buying a used .223 and working with that for the next year or so, then thinking about either building it up or getting a new one in .308/5.6 Creedmoor.

this video series is amazing and really goes into a ton of detail, i should have watched it before i made this thread, but BKR’s advice has been spot on as usual.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJUaiRIEduNXoal2_PkBZi0vDCIcEPxUn[/video]

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Ming, the .308 is an excellent choice. I can shoot to 500 hunred yards with some scope adjustment. My 308s are sighted in for 2 inches high at 100 yards. This is for hunting and I have taken only 1 shot over 300 yards while hunting. The 308 can easily reach 500 hunred yards, I have never tried over 500. Joe

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[QUOTE=Ming Loyalist;2877344]looks like something like this http://www.mrgundealer.com/product.savage-law-enforcement-10-fcp-bolt-223-rem-24-41-syn-stk-black-15 could be used to shoot a few thousand rounds and then re-barreled in 6.5 creedmoor with a kit from these guys http://www.eabco.com/savagebarrels.htm

yeah i’m all over classes of any type. we have the pistol one at my range coming up but i can’t register for that until i get my license, same for the tactical shotgun class. i’ll ask about the rifle class.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a plan. 6.5 Creedmore ammo is a bit pricey, though, compared to .308 Win. Unless you plan to start hand-loading, which didn’t sound like a viable option given you living quarters.

Depending on how you plan to hunt deer, a 9.9 lb rifle with a 26" barrel (unloaded no scope or mounts) can get a bit heavy lugging around the woods.

I got my wife a Ruger American in .308. I have only shot factory ammo in it, some of it cheap Turkish stuff (FMJ), and it’s easily shoots into and around an inch at 100 yards. Bone stock with an old Sightron 2.5x -10x scope I bought in 2002.

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[QUOTE=Ming Loyalist;2877426]for the record i am now planning on renting/buying a used .223 and working with that for the next year or so, then thinking about either building it up or getting a new one in .308/5.6 Creedmoor.

this video series is amazing and really goes into a ton of detail, i should have watched it before i made this thread, but BKR’s advice has been spot on as usual.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJUaiRIEduNXoal2_PkBZi0vDCIcEPxUn[/video][/QUOTE]

You can get a lot of practice in with a .223 cheaply. I got a HR Handirifle for myself and then my kids learned to shoot with it. In your case, I’d go for a bolt action, though.

People go all wonky over ballistics, scopes that cost $2000, and minutia. Most of those guys also do hand-loading.

I have found over the years that it’s a lot more enjoyable to shoot at closer ranges from field positions (although I like to shoot at longer ranges, past 300 yards as well), with a low-recoil (as in .223 Rem). All the basics are applicable to shooting at longer ranges. The truth is that off a solid bench rest, shooting at targets/gongs a long ways off isn’t that difficult with modern equipment. The main problem I ran into was light barrel heats up and causes mirage plus depending on how well the rifle is set up/bedded/etc groups can open up quite a bit.

I used to shoot a lot when I lived in high desert in Pocatello, Idaho. Out to about 800 yards or so with my hunting rifle. I’d never shoot at an animal that far, but I could hit basketball sized rocks shooting prone pretty regularly.

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[QUOTE=BKR;2877474]You can get a lot of practice in with a .223 cheaply. I got a HR Handirifle for myself and then my kids learned to shoot with it. In your case, I’d go for a bolt action, though.

People go all wonky over ballistics, scopes that cost $2000, and minutia. Most of those guys also do hand-loading.

I have found over the years that it’s a lot more enjoyable to shoot at closer ranges from field positions (although I like to shoot at longer ranges, past 300 yards as well), with a low-recoil (as in .223 Rem). All the basics are applicable to shooting at longer ranges. The truth is that off a solid bench rest, shooting at targets/gongs a long ways off isn’t that difficult with modern equipment. The main problem I ran into was light barrel heats up and causes mirage plus depending on how well the rifle is set up/bedded/etc groups can open up quite a bit.

I used to shoot a lot when I lived in high desert in Pocatello, Idaho. Out to about 800 yards or so with my hunting rifle. I’d never shoot at an animal that far, but I could hit basketball sized rocks shooting prone pretty regularly.[/QUOTE]

i appreciate all the advice and a .223 is sounding more and more like it should be my first rifle (finding a used one with a heavy barrel may be tough, but i’ll look around.) that sniper 101 series is pretty amazing, the one on tuning a rifle’s harmonic resonance was mind boggling. if i lived outside of the city and had a decent workshop, i’d want to try to get a dirt cheap old rifle and see if i could tune it into a sharp shooter.

anyway i went to the range today and shot 50 rounds of 38 special through what i believe was a ruger 77/357 bolt action rifle. here are the last 20 rounds (elbows on the bench, two 5 round magazines per target at 50 ft range.) i think i can do a lot better (was doing better with the .22 i think) but am curious if i should keep up the .38 special or go back to .22lr. i don’t think the recoil was bugging me much if at all, and the cost isn’t really much more for ammo (.22 is super overpriced at my range.) i am not allowed to shoot .223 at my range in NYC, so if i want to work on marksmanship in NYC i will have to keep using their rifles, or get a trainer rifle in 22lr (which seems kind of common with long range shooters from what i can see.)

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[QUOTE=Ming Loyalist;2877500]i appreciate all the advice and a .223 is sounding more and more like it should be my first rifle (finding a used one with a heavy barrel may be tough, but i’ll look around.) that sniper 101 series is pretty amazing, the one on tuning a rifle’s harmonic resonance was mind boggling. if i lived outside of the city and had a decent workshop, i’d want to try to get a dirt cheap old rifle and see if i could tune it into a sharp shooter.

anyway i went to the range today and shot 50 rounds of 38 special through what i believe was a ruger 77/357 bolt action rifle. here are the last 20 rounds (elbows on the bench, two 5 round magazines per target at 50 ft range.) i think i can do a lot better (was doing better with the .22 i think) but am curious if i should keep up the .38 special or go back to .22lr. i don’t think the recoil was bugging me much if at all, and the cost isn’t really much more for ammo (.22 is super overpriced at my range.) i am not allowed to shoot .223 at my range in NYC, so if i want to work on marksmanship in NYC i will have to keep using their rifles, or get a trainer rifle in 22lr (which seems kind of common with long range shooters from what i can see.)

[/QUOTE]

You can practice good shooting technique with either. I can’t imagine that .38 spl from a rifle would have much muzzle blast, so I’d say have at it if it’s cheaper than .22 LR.

I can’t even find any around here (.22 LR) on a regular basis. Millions of rounds a month get manufactured, where does it all go, LOL ?

I hand load, and got some 110 grain “plinker” bullets to load up for my kids to shoot in their .308s. I have plenty of brass now, primers, and some Trail Boss powder to burn. Because I can’t find enough .22 LR !

I told them they could use them to shoot ground squirrels this spring (they come out about Tax Day, plus or minus), and both said they’d rather use their bows. Mostly I think because they don’t have to worry as much about backstop with the bows.