Your observation is exactly right on, though. It has been that way for a while now, hence me videoing my randori lately, so I can have a constant visual reference.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2827390]Your observation is exactly right on, though. It has been that way for a while now, hence me videoing my randori lately, so I can have a constant visual reference.[/QUOTE]
That’s a good thing to do. I’ve found it helps me out a lot as judoka and as a coach. As in , the last time I videoed myself doing Judo earlier this year, I looked a lot worse than I felt. Getting older and slower suck, LOL !
Some of my students are helped by watching themselves, others not so much. I think it is linked to preferred learning style more or less.
[QUOTE=BKR;2827391] I looked a lot worse than I felt. Getting older and slower suck.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that’s me. Hate it.
After reading this thread and the kani basami one I’m worried I might injure someone’s knee with osoto gari, I do bjj and we drill throws/takedowns a lot but mostly only spar with them leading up to competition. So I’m asking out of concern for my training partners (for when we next spar from standing) and hope you can forgive me if I don’t communicate this well.
When I drill I reap the leg in a very straight line in the direction the knee bends naturally but the part I am concerned about is pulling uke’s sleeve towards me and pushing away with the hand on the collar, I’m worried this could cause a twisting motion and hurt uke’s knee. It’s probably a more basic point than this thread merits but it seemed better than starting a new thread.
[QUOTE=cereus;2827477]After reading this thread and the kani basami one I’m worried I might injure someone’s knee with osoto gari, I do bjj and we drill throws/takedowns a lot but mostly only spar with them leading up to competition. So I’m asking out of concern for my training partners (for when we next spar from standing) and hope you can forgive me if I don’t communicate this well.
When I drill I reap the leg in a very straight line in the direction the knee bends naturally but the part I am concerned about is pulling uke’s sleeve towards me and pushing away with the hand on the collar, I’m worried this could cause a twisting motion and hurt uke’s knee. It’s probably a more basic point than this thread merits but it seemed better than starting a new thread.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know, man. That sounds pretty normal to me. Pulling the sleeve and pushing the collar just sounds like good kuzushi.
BUT while I never go out to purposefully hurt someone, I throw them with the purpose of throwing them. Most of the time, how they land is their business. Learning good ukemi is there for a reason.
Thanks, it was basically the talk of everything that can hurt someone’s knee that kind of made me panic.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2827130]
//youtu.be/khRG2ckbzQg
This is literally reps 95-100 from my 1st practice today, so I’m surprised they don’t look too bad.
I just focused on breaking uke’s posture, entering quickly-ish, and keeping a neutral back and neck position. Toward the end, I started to get good chest-to-hip contact, also, which caused the throw to require much less effort.[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure if this is a result of tiredness or whether the shoes make it harder to do, or both.
However, your initial contact positioning with the leg is off.
You’re making loose contact with either the high calf or sometimes the back of your knee
In randori and contest this won’t give you the necessary control and pining of the leg that you need.
You want to make firm and tight contact with your toes pointed down and the blade of you foot in contact with uke’s calf
This will ensure uke can’t slip his leg out and that as you break his balance over the leg you’re attacking you keep the leg and the weight pinned as you enter.
I would recommend doing some reps just practicing that initial contact and getting used to angling your toes downwards, you may need to take the shoes off for this I’m not sure how flexible they are, and getting the blade of your foot into contact with uke’s leg/calf.
Second point, which again may be down to tiredness/shoes/both is how you reap with the leg as you make chest contact, but is probably because you’re not making that initial contact with the blade of the foot.
Your leg is remaining at a kind of half cock position with the heel up.
What you want to be doing is sliding your leg down uke’s as you close and get chest contact and then complete your reap.
Pedro slides his leg down uke’s leg quite early, I’m not sure I could get away with that without getting countered, but it demonstrates the general principle
[video=youtube_share;rqNslie-J68]http://youtu.be/rqNslie-J68[/video]
[QUOTE=judoka_uk;2827520]I’m not sure if this is a result of tiredness or whether the shoes make it harder to do, or both.
However, your initial contact positioning with the leg is off.
You’re making loose contact with either the high calf or sometimes the back of your knee
In randori and contest this won’t give you the necessary control and pining of the leg that you need.
You want to make firm and tight contact with your toes pointed down and the blade of you foot in contact with uke’s calf
This will ensure uke can’t slip his leg out and that as you break his balance over the leg you’re attacking you keep the leg and the weight pinned as you enter.
I would recommend doing some reps just practicing that initial contact and getting used to angling your toes downwards, you may need to take the shoes off for this I’m not sure how flexible they are, and getting the blade of your foot into contact with uke’s leg/calf.
Second point, which again may be down to tiredness/shoes/both is how you reap with the leg as you make chest contact, but is probably because you’re not making that initial contact with the blade of the foot.
Your leg is remaining at a kind of half cock position with the heel up.
What you want to be doing is sliding your leg down uke’s as you close and get chest contact and then complete your reap.
Pedro slides his leg down uke’s leg quite early, I’m not sure I could get away with that without getting countered, but it demonstrates the general principle
[video=youtube_share;rqNslie-J68]http://youtu.be/rqNslie-J68[/video][/QUOTE]
I can’t agree with your analysis here. He only allows space once maybe twice but there is contact before he starts the throw. While I agree with about his calf contact I don’t agree on the placement.
I used to believe this dogmatic approach until I had a high ranking Judoka show me a different way. I show kids your version I show the adults both versions. I even use a third version.
[QUOTE=Omega Supreme;2827522]I can’t agree with your analysis here. He only allows space once maybe twice but there is contact before he starts the throw. While I agree with about his calf contact I don’t agree on the placement.
I used to believe this dogmatic approach until I had a high ranking Judoka show me a different way. I show kids your version I show the adults both versions. I even use a third version.[/QUOTE]
I’m afraid I have to advance a contrary opionion.
You’re right that all too often, in Judo. poor technique becomes codified as dogma.
However, in this instance we have both Jimmy Pedro and Yasuhiro Yamashita in agreement. They are both hugely experienced and knowlegable Judoka and they are both not afraid to challenge dogma.
The fact both advocate the same method should be an indication that it is not dogmatic to advocate this approach, rather that it is the approach that will work the most often, for the most people in realistic scenarios.
This is a fundamental feature of what a lot of people call Judo dogma. Technique X performed in method Y is usually done because for 90% of people that will work 90% of the time. The adaptations are a result of the few rare instances where the canonical methods fail.
I would put the ball back in your court and say, if you have an alternative method that you believe will work for the majority of people, in the majority of situations then please describe it and provide the supporting instructional images/video. That way blackmonk can make an informed decision on whether your method or tried and tested method works better for him.
[QUOTE=cereus;2827477]After reading this thread and the kani basami one I’m worried I might injure someone’s knee with osoto gari, I do bjj and we drill throws/takedowns a lot but mostly only spar with them leading up to competition. So I’m asking out of concern for my training partners (for when we next spar from standing) and hope you can forgive me if I don’t communicate this well.
When I drill I reap the leg in a very straight line in the direction the knee bends naturally but the part I am concerned about is pulling uke’s sleeve towards me and pushing away with the hand on the collar, I’m worried this could cause a twisting motion and hurt uke’s knee. It’s probably a more basic point than this thread merits but it seemed better than starting a new thread.[/QUOTE]
Not sure what you mean by “pushing away with the hand on the collar”. There isn’t any need to push uke away from you. Instead, you should be holding uke close and controlling the head/upper body with your collar hand, whether it is a normal collar grip,high collar grip, or a deeper version.
Pushing away is a common flaw in my experience. Especially in BJJ, where you want/need to maintain control all the way to the ground and presumably end up in some sort of control position (pin).
[QUOTE=Omega Supreme;2827522]I can’t agree with your analysis here. He only allows space once maybe twice but there is contact before he starts the throw. While I agree with about his calf contact I don’t agree on the placement.
I used to believe this dogmatic approach until I had a high ranking Judoka show me a different way. I show kids your version I show the adults both versions. I even use a third version.[/QUOTE]
Any time you allow space it gives uke a chance to escape.
As far as the other method, I’d like to hear about it.
[QUOTE=judoka_uk;2827649]I’m afraid I have to advance a contrary opionion.
You’re right that all too often, in Judo. poor technique becomes codified as dogma.
However, in this instance we have both Jimmy Pedro and Yasuhiro Yamashita in agreement. They are both hugely experienced and knowlegable Judoka and they are both not afraid to challenge dogma.
The fact both advocate the same method should be an indication that it is not dogmatic to advocate this approach, rather that it is the approach that will work the most often, for the most people in realistic scenarios.
This is a fundamental feature of what a lot of people call Judo dogma. Technique X performed in method Y is usually done because for 90% of people that will work 90% of the time. The adaptations are a result of the few rare instances where the canonical methods fail.
I would put the ball back in your court and say, if you have an alternative method that you believe will work for the majority of people, in the majority of situations then please describe it and provide the supporting instructional images/video. That way blackmonk can make an informed decision on whether your method or tried and tested method works better for him.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t know we were referencing their approach to Osoto Gari. I use both approaches , as I stated before, and I help identify which one I would use in specific situations. It is usually dependent upon your penetration from your initial step.
Another problem I have is getting basic beginners to actually get that foot to lift. When I use the high approach first it gets programmed into their body not post the reaping foot. Also an advantage of not reaping from the low end of the calf is a different set of muscle group that forces more of a thrust wedging action rather than a lifting action (which you can still do with the lower reap but it is as apparent).
I note Pedro gets his hopping leg at or past uke’s leg but you don’t. Classic osoto the step is even deeper. The crash mat might be interfering with your footwork.
[QUOTE=BKR;2827652]Not sure what you mean by “pushing away with the hand on the collar”. There isn’t any need to push uke away from you. Instead, you should be holding uke close and controlling the head/upper body with your collar hand, whether it is a normal collar grip,high collar grip, or a deeper version.
Pushing away is a common flaw in my experience. Especially in BJJ, where you want/need to maintain control all the way to the ground and presumably end up in some sort of control position (pin).[/QUOTE]
I think what cereus is getting at isn’t necessarily implicit in the vocabulary “pushing away”… I think what he means is the act of balance-breaking, where you bring uke’s weight over the hip with your collar grip, like in the position circled in green here. He’s concerned about the weight being over that knee, while the knee is briefly in place, and then reaped.
Most potentially injurious pressure you may feel there, while being attacked, can be alleviated with good ukemi. I know I’ve saved many body parts on many occasions by falling correctly, especially against inexperienced, spazzy partners.
[QUOTE=BKR;2827653]Any time you allow space it gives uke a chance to escape. [/QUOTE]
This. Not directed at Omega and you guys’ debate there. Just an excellent concept in general.
[QUOTE=judoka_uk;2827520]I’m not sure if this is a result of tiredness or whether the shoes make it harder to do, or both.
Second point, which again may be down to tiredness/shoes/both…
[/QUOTE]
Fatigue, and I have very little experience dissecting this throw. I can demonstrate it for belt testing in the most classic and orthodox of methods, but I don’t have personal experience with a lot of the little nuances.
The shoes, however, are like leather socks. There’s no restriction of movement.
[QUOTE=BKR;2827653]Any time you allow space it gives uke a chance to escape.
As far as the other method, I’d like to hear about it.[/QUOTE]
I can’t disagree with that, I could only spot it twice though. It’s a neither here nor there discussion. As far as that other method maybe that’ll be my next video because you’ve already seen my other variation from the other video I posted.
[QUOTE=Omega Supreme;2827658]I didn’t know we were referencing their approach to Osoto Gari. I use both approaches , as I stated before, and I help identify which one I would use in specific situations. It is usually dependent upon your penetration from your initial step.
[/QUOTE]
My post was meant to have videos by Pedro and Yamashita, but neither seemed to show up.
Here are the two I was trying to referrence
Pedro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqNslie-J68
Yamashita:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YEGFemXOo
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2827674]Fatigue, and I have very little experience dissecting this throw. I can demonstrate it for belt testing in the most classic and orthodox of methods, but I don’t have personal experience with a lot of the little nuances.
The shoes, however, are like leather socks. There’s no restriction of movement.[/QUOTE]
If I was on rep 95 my O soto would be looking pretty ropey.
Interesting about the ‘shoes’ though, wonder if it affects how some of the decent Judoka from Russia and former USSR countries use O soto in Sambo comps. Predictably, searching youtube for “Sambo O soto gari” just turns up Americans doing instructionals and Judo videos.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2827672]I think what cereus is getting at isn’t necessarily implicit in the vocabulary “pushing away”… I think what he means is the act of balance-breaking, where you bring uke’s weight over the hip with your collar grip, like in the position circled in green here. He’s concerned about the weight being over that knee, while the knee is briefly in place, and then reaped.
Most potentially injurious pressure you may feel there, while being attacked, can be alleviated with good ukemi. I know I’ve saved many body parts on many occasions by falling correctly, especially against inexperienced, spazzy partners.[/QUOTE]
I spazzed out in my response, and was thinking of a normal aka “classical” Osoto Gari. The “hooking/cross body” version is different, of course.
[QUOTE=judoka_uk;2827707]
Interesting about the ‘shoes’ though, wonder if it affects how some of the decent Judoka from Russia and former USSR countries use O soto in Sambo comps. Predictably, searching youtube for “Sambo O soto gari” just turns up Americans doing instructionals and Judo videos.[/QUOTE]
That’s an interesting question. I have seen plenty in person, at both the world championships that I competed in. My friend Aleksander has won that cup twice at 62kg with osoto gari, but his osoto is from a seoi nage-type grip… It’s his tokui waza. Usually his right hand has their left lapel, and he shoots his left hand underneath his own lapel grip.
I saw a couple of kids from Switzerland get hammered at this year’s cup, one of which took a pretty wicked osoto gari from a Russian. He was smaller than me, competing at 74kg, so he was a dwarf compared to everyone else. His feet scraped the ceiling on that osoto.
Again, good question. More often than not, I see sambo players do it ken-ken style, but I see that in judo, as well. Most of the good international sambo players began as international judoka, so there isn’t much dissonance there.