[QUOTE=Omega Supreme;2826694]On the leg they’re reaping.[/QUOTE]
I have to admit I’ve never heard of that teaching cue before on Osoto Gari. I’ll have to try it out.
In that above Ono video, he reaps and looks “through” the throw, as in underneath and behind him, which seems to facilitate the roll-through.
I did that the other day for my speed drilling, and I liked it, but I don’t know if that’s what you were getting at or not.
[QUOTE=judoka_uk;2826717]O soto gari is my tokuiwaza, so here’s my two penneth.
The classical practicing entry is usually done wrong, it’s done wrong because people line up so tori’s left foot is opposite uke’s right and vice versa, tori then steps diagonally left or right, depending on which is their dominant hand to start the technique. This sends their body off in the wrong direction and ruins hand action.
When practicing standard O soto uchikomi always start offset from your partner, so your entry step is pretty much straight forward
This also applies to randori. It is almost impossible to throw a competent opponent with uke and tori both having standard sleeve and lapel grips when you’re face on.
If you’re offset from uke then a canonical O soto gari can work, but is best done using action re-action as a follow up to a strong and genuie Ko uchi gari or Sasae tsuri komi ashi attack
The most common competition and randori entry is done from kenka yotsu when tori has his right hand in a controlling position on uke’s collar and left hand in a controlling position on uke’s sleeve end.
From this position the key points are to keep uke’s sleeve pinned towards the ground, maintain hopping momentum at a rugh 45 degree angle from their right leg from tori’s perspective and a strong driving tsurite action to break their balance over their right leg, which is pinned to the mat by the combination of the downward pressure on the sleeve and the driving/reaping action of the leg/tsurite hand.
The sleeve is probably the most important aspect in this situation, if you don’t have that sleeve control your hopping driving O soto is not going to be as effective. Uke will either turn out for a lower score, break the technique or at worst counter for a score.
If you can’t get dominant control of the sleeve, if for example, you have double lapel or your opponent doesn’t have a sleeve or gripping rules don’t allow your to achieve a dominant sleeve grip. Then the attacking methodology changes.
In this scenario emphasis needs to be on controlling uke’s head and using your lapel/collar grip to drive them over the reaped leg thus pinning their weight on it, whilst hopping/driving into the canonical position at which point sleeve control becomes less important and the control over the head and upper body becomes paramount.
Note when I say emphasis it is meant to mean that the two different approaches require more on one than the other, not that sleeve control is less important than head control. For a really good O soto sleeve control and head control should be equally important, but in the slightly different contest versions the weighting of the emphasis tends to shift slightly.[/QUOTE]
Isn’t lining up offset (which I understand the reason for) akin to starting out “t’ed up”?
The hard thing in Osoto Gari is to get into that offset position against a resisting opponent, same as to get into the “t’ed up” position for forward throws.
I’ve found that how and where exactly I step or move depends greatly on relative size of myself to uke, weight, height, gripping situation, and all that (in order to get uke at enough of a disadvantage to attempt the throw. So how exactly I use my sleeve hand and head control varies quite a bit.
The “generic” cross-body Osoto Gari gets around some of that by pinning uke down with the hooking leg and then adapting from there to what/how uke reacts. Still requires the other elements, but the whole need to get offset tends to be diminished.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2826760]In that above Ono video, he reaps and looks “through” the throw, as in underneath and behind him, which seems to facilitate the roll-through.
I did that the other day for my speed drilling, and I liked it, but I don’t know if that’s what you were getting at or not.[/QUOTE]
He does at the final part of the throw once he’s achieved chest contact. The important point that I think Ben was trying to convey and that I would echo, is that you need to keep a strong posture whilst attacking.
A lot of O sotos fail because people drop their head too early and lose power. If you watch the Ono video you’ll see as he engages and gains chest contact his back is totally straight regardless of where he’s looking.
The best analogy I can think of, which probably won’t mean much to an American is scrummaging. The way as a front row forward you need to be able to crouch whilst maintaining a straight back and good body posture.
An example, look at the straight back and excellent posture well into the heart of the attack, uke is already critically off balanced and on his way to being thrown.
It’s only once uke is thrown that he starts to really look towards the mat to aid with the drive to completion.
When I’m coaching people on Osoto I tend to tell them to attack from the hips, not the shoulders, this doesn’t mean literally hip thrust towards them, obviously. However, I do it to try and get them to consciously not lead with the head, which achieves the real aim of them leading with their chest.
Be interesting to see some video like in the Uchi mata thread if you’re up for it.
[QUOTE=BKR;2826761]Isn’t lining up offset (which I understand the reason for) akin to starting out “t’ed up”?
The hard thing in Osoto Gari is to get into that offset position against a resisting opponent, same as to get into the “t’ed up” position for forward throws.
[/QUOTE]
I guess so, in so much as it’s a more optimal position to attack than the classic sleeve lapel equal position. As you know, being fully T-ed up happens rarely though it’s more of a training tool than a randori tool. This is where I think offset is different, because it’s a very real randori position with some very real and effective attacking options - Sasae, Ko uchi, O soto etc…
[QUOTE=BKR;2826761]
I’ve found that how and where exactly I step or move depends greatly on relative size of myself to uke, weight, height, gripping situation, and all that (in order to get uke at enough of a disadvantage to attempt the throw. So how exactly I use my sleeve hand and head control varies quite a bit.
The “generic” cross-body Osoto Gari gets around some of that by pinning uke down with the hooking leg and then adapting from there to what/how uke reacts. Still requires the other elements, but the whole need to get offset tends to be diminished.[/QUOTE]
Yes, size relative to your opponent changes a lot. If I’m fighting really big guys, in contest I’m more adventerous in randori, I rarely attack with O soto as the counter risk is too great. I tend to switch to O uchi/ Sasae as my primary big attacks.
For me the cross body O soto generally blows the whole offset mechanic out of the water. Once you’re in that kenka yotsu position with sleeve end and lapel control then the offsetting thing goes out of the window. However, not so, in my experience, if you have double lapel or lapel and armpit from the kenka yotsu, then you need to do a cross body O soto like Pedro demonstrates where you come in diagonally, but then hop/drive into the canonical offset position.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2826760]In that above Ono video, he reaps and looks “through” the throw, as in underneath and behind him, which seems to facilitate the roll-through.
I did that the other day for my speed drilling, and I liked it, but I don’t know if that’s what you were getting at or not.[/QUOTE]
The follow-through of turning the head is part of the finish of the throw, as I pointed out in an earlier post. It happens to more or less of a degree depending exactly on how you end up throwing uke. As far as all of my training has gone, it’s SOP for Osoto Gari and many other throws.
Rotate shoulders and head (to finish), turn inside hip down (close the hip). This all facilitates contact and thus control of uke all the way to the ground. The same elements are in the standard throw with a standing finish, or if you drive into uke and into the ground without rolling through.
[QUOTE=BKR;2826661]
Finally, the experts that I’ve had instruction from emphasized hooking your heel behind uke knee, especially the outside ridge of the knee. All of them that did it to me put an incredible amount of pressure there which tended to paralyze me in place.[/QUOTE]
Re-reading earlier posts: The above is my primary attack point at all times from kenka yotsu. Although I don’t claim to be an expert and have no idea if I’ve ever paralysed someone in position doing it, the outside ridge of the knee is where I aim for when attacking.
I also only slide/drive my leg down to their ankle if I’m attacking from kenka yotsu with double lapel and or lapel and armpit, in which cases I hop/drive in and round until I’m chest to chest with uke.
YMMV
[QUOTE=judoka_uk;2826920]He does at the final part of the throw once he’s achieved chest contact. The important point that I think Ben was trying to convey and that I would echo, is that you need to keep a strong posture whilst attacking.
A lot of O sotos fail because people drop their head too early and lose power. If you watch the Ono video you’ll see as he engages and gains chest contact his back is totally straight regardless of where he’s looking.
The best analogy I can think of, which probably won’t mean much to an American is scrummaging. The way as a front row forward you need to be able to crouch whilst maintaining a straight back and good body posture.
An example, look at the straight back and excellent posture well into the heart of the attack, uke is already critically off balanced and on his way to being thrown.
It’s only once uke is thrown that he starts to really look towards the mat to aid with the drive to completion.
When I’m coaching people on Osoto I tend to tell them to attack from the hips, not the shoulders, this doesn’t mean literally hip thrust towards them, obviously. However, I do it to try and get them to consciously not lead with the head, which achieves the real aim of them leading with their chest.
Be interesting to see some video like in the Uchi mata thread if you’re up for it.
I guess so, in so much as it’s a more optimal position to attack than the classic sleeve lapel equal position. As you know, being fully T-ed up happens rarely though it’s more of a training tool than a randori tool. This is where I think offset is different, because it’s a very real randori position with some very real and effective attacking options - Sasae, Ko uchi, O soto etc…
Yes, size relative to your opponent changes a lot. If I’m fighting really big guys, in contest I’m more adventerous in randori, I rarely attack with O soto as the counter risk is too great. I tend to switch to O uchi/ Sasae as my primary big attacks.
For me the cross body O soto generally blows the whole offset mechanic out of the water. Once you’re in that kenka yotsu position with sleeve end and lapel control then the offsetting thing goes out of the window. However, not so, in my experience, if you have double lapel or lapel and armpit from the kenka yotsu, then you need to do a cross body O soto like Pedro demonstrates where you come in diagonally, but then hop/drive into the canonical offset position.[/QUOTE]
Yes, we are on the same page, as usual. Keeping good posture throughout a throwing action/entry is critical, especially against fully resisting opponents. Those who have done Judo with higher level players (especially Japanese), will notice how strong their posture is throughout their range of grip/move/enter/throw sequence(s).
That is a point I emphasize very very strongly when teaching. Head needs to be up, and the spine in as natural a position as possible so as to be able to maintain the widest range of motion.
Obviously, that doesn’t always happen. In a sense, tori relative posture and position needs to be sufficiently better than uke to execute a throw. When dealing with skilled opponents, where the margin of error diminishes to practically nil, posture must be excellent to have any chance.
[QUOTE=judoka_uk;2826922]Re-reading earlier posts: The above is my primary attack point at all times from kenka yotsu. Although I don’t claim to be an expert and have no idea if I’ve ever paralyzed someone in position doing it, the outside ridge of the knee is where I aim for when attacking.
I also only slide/drive my leg down to their ankle if I’m attacking from kenka yotsu with double lapel and or lapel and armpit, in which cases I hop/drive in and round until I’m chest to chest with uke.
YMMV[/QUOTE]
You don’t have to be an expert to know how to do it correctly, just to be able to throw other experts, LOL !
I’ve never slid down to the ankle, I should try it though. Osoto wasn’t and isn’t my go to throw, not that I have much in the way of that anymore, other than various ashi barai.
To avoid any confusion, please describe to me the ridge of the knee. The kneecap, the area related to the IT bands, hamstring tendon, or what exactly?
I know this may be unnecessarily specific, but I like perfection.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2826956]To avoid any confusion, please describe to me the ridge of the knee. The kneecap, the area related to the IT bands, hamstring tendon, or what exactly?
I know this may be unnecessarily specific, but I like perfection.[/QUOTE]
I’d say it’s the the tendon that connects the Biceps Femoris to the Fibula.
https://thesebonesofmine.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/tibia.gif
Make sense now? I had to look up the anatomical names LOL.
That tendon also makes a nice place to hook your toe(s) when doing Hiza Guruma.
That’s what I figured.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2826998]That’s what I figured.[/QUOTE]
Perfection is yours !
[QUOTE=BKR;2827023]Perfection is yours ![/QUOTE]
Shit, I wish it were that easy.
Video probably coming tomorrow. I’ve got two sessions.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2827060]Shit, I wish it were that easy.
Video probably coming tomorrow. I’ve got two sessions.[/QUOTE]
Looking forward to seeing some video. You are a shining example to the rest of the people here who ask questions about specific techniques they are working on, yet somehow can’t be bothered to record some video on a fucking smart phone and upload it.
This is literally reps 95-100 from my 1st practice today, so I’m surprised they don’t look too bad.
I just focused on breaking uke’s posture, entering quickly-ish, and keeping a neutral back and neck position. Toward the end, I started to get good chest-to-hip contact, also, which caused the throw to require much less effort.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2827130]
//youtu.be/khRG2ckbzQg
This is literally reps 95-100 from my 1st practice today, so I’m surprised they don’t look too bad.
I just focused on breaking uke’s posture, entering quickly-ish, and keeping a neutral back and neck position. Toward the end, I started to get good chest-to-hip contact, also, which caused the throw to require much less effort.[/QUOTE]
I just have a quick moment to look at the video while at work for now.
Uke is off balance nicely (nothing like a good uke). That may not happen exactly in contest or randori, of course.
Your entry is kind of mushy, is the word that comes to mind. Good contact with upper body and your posture is good. Head position is good, up, not looking down.
You could get tighter contact by drawing your hikite more closely to your body as and after you enter.
The finish…try turning your head and shoulders to your right as you reap. That may cause you to land on uke, or at least stretch out more in your throwing action. Landing on uke depends on your own level of body control. If you stretch your left leg as you twist, it might help.
You are throwing with a lot of upper body “power”…what I suggest above may help with that. Nothing wrong with power and well applied force, however, I think you can multiply that by some tweaks in your body mechanics.
OK, I have to hit work again. I’m sure I missed a lot, others will chime in I’m sure.
Although I can’t precisely describe mushiness, I think that may just be from fatigue.
I have had a problem for the last 2 years or so with being sluggish in competition, though, so I filmed myself doing some rounds with a friend of mine from Russia. He began training sambo when he was 8 years old, and he was a junior national champion in judo here in the US. Very good player, but he too has a problem with coasting in competition, and sometimes being too passive.
Here’s me hitting a non-sluggish makikomi against him earlier tonight, although it isn’t necessarily germane to the topic of osoto gari itself.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2827149]Although I can’t precisely describe mushiness, I think that may just be from fatigue.[/QUOTE]
No doubt fatigue played a role, that was just my quick impression. It might be good to see you applying the technique while fresh, in dynamic situation. Crash pad nage komi are often kind of staged looking due to the spacing issues.
[QUOTE=blackmonk;2827313]I have had a problem for the last 2 years or so with being sluggish in competition, though, so I filmed myself doing some rounds with a friend of mine from Russia. He began training sambo when he was 8 years old, and he was a junior national champion in judo here in the US. Very good player, but he too has a problem with coasting in competition, and sometimes being too passive.
Here’s me hitting a non-sluggish makikomi against him earlier tonight, although it isn’t necessarily germane to the topic of osoto gari itself.
//youtu.be/4Q6yeattTaY
[/QUOTE]
Definitely not so sluggish that time
I’d say with the power grip you put on him just about anything would have worked !