Favourite Escapes WITH DETAILS You Learnt Later That Changed The Game

Martial Arts Training Forums BJJ and Advanced Grappling Forum
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Alright guys, I’ve been told by the head honcho that my game has come to a point where it won’t progress until I start to get better on the bottom of mount, side control, and knee ride.

Considering people fight as hard as they can to not be under my mount, side control, or knee ride, it has resulted in me having somewhat weirdly developed a half guard/ deep half game that I’ve been able to use to sweep and ultimately get on top over the past few years. This has resulted in me baiting people into my half guard and then once on top, using superior weight distribution (read: fat) for pressure and ultimately submission.

By no means am I saying my top game is good, but from what I can tell, I’m being coached to the realisation that my top game is at the peak of what it will be until I start to develop my bottom game.

So I’ve been putting myself under mount, side control and knee ride willingly (and unwillingly). I’ve found that people are in desperation mode to stay on top of me because they simply don’t want my top pressure on them, which is great for me at the present because it means I have to escape people who are going hard trying to not let me escape. The issue is that the techniques to escape that I would normally use are being shut the fuck down hard core.

I know from experience that there is often a light bulb detail with every move, so am just looking for an archive of escapes AND the details that changed the game for you higher level grapplers.

For example, the Bridge and Roll Escape, attaching the chest to the arm and trapping the same side leg. Details that “changed my perception” of the technique:

  1. Attach the chest to the arm not the other way round - secure the arm with hook grip on the forearm near the elbow and bring your chest up to the arm, as it is stronger than simply using your arms to bring it to your chest.
  2. Moving your head away from the side you’re bridging to, and as you arch to bridge, look over your shoulder to where you’re looking to roll to.

Anyway, makes sense to me, maybe it means jack all to you. Hoping y’all have some input.

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Another detail that makes the trap and roll work well is to, when dealing with a more astute grappler, maintain bridge pressure to one side to get them to put their weight in position for a quick bridge to the other side.

Frame and hip escape from bottom side control.
One detail that is key for me is to remember that my frame is there to force them to allow my hip to move. NOT to move their body. Another key to that one is to turn your bottom knee in to a frame as well and use it to push yourself away from them to re-guard.

Really, this is a key for all escapes. Moving yourself and not them. Get them to move for you so you don’t have to work so hard.

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This is probably ultra basic, but it took me some time to get it so:
when bridging to bump the other guy out, remember that he has a weak point in the direction of your head, even if you can’t bump him completely upwards it will still force him to post his hands on the mat so you might shrimp away.

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Get in your car and drive off.
Works very well in most circumstances.

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[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2987509]Get in your car and drive off.
Works very well in most circumstances.[/QUOTE]

Hmm. Adgrap seems like a poor place to troll. Even for as respected a personage as you Dr. Murphy.

Besides, you know anyone as fat as Battlefields can’t “get in his car” in any kind of tactically useful manner.

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[QUOTE=AcerTempest;2987510]Hmm. Adgrap seems like a poor place to troll. Even for as respected a personage as you Dr. Murphy.

Besides, you know anyone as fat as Battlefields can’t “get in his car” in any kind of tactically useful manner.[/QUOTE]

Let me explain another way:
We tend to view things in terms of models, and our ways of thinking about our situation tend to self-constrain our possible choices.
There are many grappling models (and other martial arts models, and other broader models) that have certain games expected within those models.
Change the model, or play in a way not expected nor accounted for by the model, you sometimes get very different results.
For example, hitting them in the face before attempting that stand up grappling technique,
or attempt counter offense from within a position considered as inferior within the expected model using techniques from competitive systems that have offensive games from that position, etc.
There are things I do which really annoy BJJ players but that Sambo players and/or wrestlers have highly trained responses to, and in some cases, vice-versa.
Just like injecting things into grappling like striking while grappling, or finger grabs, or eye defense awareness or firearms retention can turn something that was wonderful in one model, into something horrible in the other model.
Truth is elusive…there are useful models, but they are all situational and context dependent, which again, is why truth is elusive.
To further complicate matters, combat sports are non-transitive games (think rock, paper, scissors), based not just on technique selection, or stylistic responses to situations, but also body types, and individual athletes opposing each other, and are own state of health and exhaustion versus our ability to bring anaerobic power and explosiveness as our state changes during an encounter.
And in all cases the highest plane of escape is avoiding the situation that would necessitate an escape rather than having to expend the energy to need to escape at all.

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[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2987511]Let me explain another way:
We tend to view things in terms of models, and our ways of thinking about our situation tend to self-constrain our possible choices.
There are many grappling models (and other martial arts models, and other broader models) that have certain games expected within those models.
Change the model, or play in a way not expected nor accounted for by the model, you sometimes get very different results.
For example, hitting them in the face before attempting that stand up grappling technique,
or attempt counter offense from within a position considered as inferior within the expected model using techniques from competitive systems that have offensive games from that position, etc.
There are things I do which really annoy BJJ players but that Sambo players and/or wrestlers have highly trained responses to, and in some cases, vice-versa.
Just like injecting things into grappling like striking while grappling, or finger grabs, or eye defense awareness or firearms retention can turn something that was wonderful in one model, into something horrible in the other model.
Truth is elusive…there are useful models, but they are all situational and context dependent, which again, is why truth is elusive.
To further complicate matters, combat sports are non-transitive games (think rock, paper, scissors), based not just on stylistic responses to situations, but also body types, and individual athletes opposing each other, and are own state of health and exhaustion versus our ability to bring anaerobic power and explosiveness as our state changes during an encounter.
And in all cases the highest plane of escape is avoiding the situation that would necessitate an escape rather than having to expend the energy to need to escape at all.[/QUOTE]

That’s some wisdom right there. Teaching to a specific ruleset (model or submodel) restrains responses even within the broader model (of say, Judo). So much time on basics, I often see that constrain peoples creativity/thinking. But then watching high level Judo comps, I see a ton of creativity, so someone is thinking outside the box at least.

As an example, I’m a righty in judo, but, go lefty when I am carrying a pistol. Cause do not present weapon closer to opponent…

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When bridging, angle feet/legs away (this is when in side control/scarf) at about 45 degrees. Bridge up, then accelerate down/away. You make the space that way on the way down in which to shrimp/frame etc.

30+ years of Judo, and when my BJJ coach showed it, I got goosebumps… and yeah, I knew how to shrimp and hip escape already.

I already knew the bridge towards head thing.

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[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2987511]Let me explain another way:
We tend to view things in terms of models, and our ways of thinking about our situation tend to self-constrain our possible choices.
There are many grappling models (and other martial arts models, and other broader models) that have certain games expected within those models.
Change the model, or play in a way not expected nor accounted for by the model, you sometimes get very different results.
For example, hitting them in the face before attempting that stand up grappling technique,
or attempt counter offense from within a position considered as inferior within the expected model using techniques from competitive systems that have offensive games from that position, etc.
There are things I do which really annoy BJJ players but that Sambo players and/or wrestlers have highly trained responses to, and in some cases, vice-versa.
Just like injecting things into grappling like striking while grappling, or finger grabs, or eye defense awareness or firearms retention can turn something that was wonderful in one model, into something horrible in the other model.
Truth is elusive…there are useful models, but they are all situational and context dependent, which again, is why truth is elusive.
To further complicate matters, combat sports are non-transitive games (think rock, paper, scissors), based not just on technique selection, or stylistic responses to situations, but also body types, and individual athletes opposing each other, and are own state of health and exhaustion versus our ability to bring anaerobic power and explosiveness as our state changes during an encounter.
And in all cases the highest plane of escape is avoiding the situation that would necessitate an escape rather than having to expend the energy to need to escape at all.[/QUOTE]

There’s that deep shit I knew you were getting at. But still, the OP asked the question within a specific contextual model, so I attempted to answer within that model.

I could just as easily have said turn to your belly and wait for the ref to stand you up, but that would not have been useful within the context of the question.
I agree that avoiding the need to escape is best, but what is your opinion of the idea of transitioning from retaining a defensive position to an escape early in order to disconcert your opponents rhythm and conserve energy?

For example, abandoning a guard you suspect your opponent is about to pass anyway in order to set better frames for a side control escape.

Or, to stick with your model of changing the dynamic and context, do you often do things when rolling from guard like stand up and back away to make your opponent come to you?

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[QUOTE=AcerTempest;2987514]There’s that deep shit I knew you were getting at. But still, the OP asked the question within a specific contextual model, so I attempted to answer within that model.

I could just as easily have said turn to your belly and wait for the ref to stand you up, but that would not have been useful within the context of the question.
I agree that avoiding the need to escape is best, but what is your opinion of the idea of transitioning from retaining a defensive position to an escape early in order to disconcert your opponents rhythm and conserve energy?

For example, abandoning a guard you suspect your opponent is about to pass anyway in order to set better frames for a side control escape.

Or, to stick with your model of changing the dynamic and context, do you often do things when rolling from guard like stand up and back away to make your opponent come to you?[/QUOTE]
There is an argument that for truly adversarial situations,
one should never play into the model the opponent expects, prefers, or would be most comfortable in.
One should make the opponent waste as much energy as possible,
be as maximally psychologically frustrated and uncomfortable as possible,
and in the most physical discomfort at all times.

One of my teachers was a submission machine from the closed guard,
and had a deceptively easy open guard to pass,
and you would usually be tapping or rotating into a bottom position just as your brain was giving you the satisfying signal that you were going to pass his guard.
He was the same person that Sakuraba paid for counter jiu-jitsu instruction prior to his fights with the Gracies.
And as the case example of Sakuraba presents, why pass a guard when one can psychologically and physically punish someone for being so foolish as to put their back on the ground…?

In all cases, as an older grappler, slow, with some progressive physical disability disease states,
I rarely resist anything my opponent does, I merely attempt to serve them the dish they are seeking in a manner that they find as repugnant as possible, and use their efforts or desired goal against them.

In fact, I consider it high play to arrange for an opponent to believe they are winning all the way until they realize they lost, and the matter is resolved,
and even higher play if you can arrange to win without the other side realizing that you won, when you wish to.

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[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2987524]There is an argument that for truly adversarial situations,
one should never play into the model the opponent expects, prefers, or would be most comfortable in.
One should make the opponent waste as much energy as possible,
be as maximally psychologically frustrated and uncomfortable as possible,
and in the most physical discomfort at all times.

One of my teachers was a submission machine from the closed guard,
and had a deceptively easy open guard to pass,
and you would usually be tapping or rotating into a bottom position just as your brain was giving you the satisfying signal that you were going to pass his guard.
He was the same person that Sakuraba paid for counter jiu-jitsu instruction prior to his fights with the Gracies.
And as the case example of Sakuraba presents, why pass a guard when one can psychologically and physically punish someone for being so foolish as to put their back on the ground…?

In all cases, as an older grappler, slow, with some progressive physical disability disease states,
I rarely resist anything my opponent does, I merely attempt to serve them the dish they are seeking in a manner that they find as repugnant as possible, and use their efforts or desired goal against them.

In fact, I consider it high play to arrange for an opponent to believe they are winning all the way until they realize they lost, and the matter is resolved,
and even higher play if you can arrange to win without the other side realizing that you won, when you wish to.[/QUOTE]

There is certainly a depth of wisdom in what you are saying here. But for myself, I find such tactics to only be effective on those whom you have an identifiable physical or technical advantage, such that you can lay a trap that they will walk in to.
It’s why you rarely, not never, but rarely see such things in high level competition. If your opponent is just as physically fit as you, and also well trained and experienced as a competitor, many times the difference maker may be in convincing them that they have already lost.
If you let them believe they are winning, it may very well be true.

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[QUOTE=AcerTempest;2987529]There is certainly a depth of wisdom in what you are saying here. But for myself, I find such tactics to only be effective on those whom you have an identifiable physical or technical advantage, such that you can lay a trap that they will walk in to.
It’s why you rarely, not never, but rarely see such things in high level competition. If your opponent is just as physically fit as you, and also well trained and experienced as a competitor, many times the difference maker may be in convincing them that they have already lost.
If you let them believe they are winning, it may very well be true.[/QUOTE]
Rope-a-dope sometimes ends up with the rope-a-doper getting knocked out severely.

On the other hand, all sacrifice throws rely on getting your opponent to push into you, and then giving way in a committed manner, using their momentum and power against them.

That’s the universe for you, seemingly full of contradictions, and full of uncertainties.

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[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2987531]Rope-a-dope sometimes ends up with the rope-a-doper getting knocked out severely.

On the other hand, all sacrifice throws rely on getting your opponent to push into you, and then giving way in a committed manner, using their momentum and power against them.

That’s the universe for you, seemingly full of contradictions, and full of uncertainties.[/QUOTE]

And I don’t let my white belts do sutemi waza.
And when I, as a certified referee, see a white belt or a young child do sutemi waza in a tournament, I know who is going to lose and why.

At a recent coaching clinic for USA Judo coaches I was at, I recently told all of the coaches in my state that I could tell whose coaches were failing them based on this.

The existence, and even occasional successful of such tactics by high level athletes does not, in my opinion, justify there use in lieu of more fundamentally sound strategies.

For every 1 Mohammed Ali against foreman, there are a dozen Conor McGregors in the 10th against Mayweather because they tried to Mohammed Ali.
For every Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki, there are a hundred kids that wind up “pulling bottom mount” when they attempt a sacrifice or a guard pull.

The fundamental tactics of any legitimate fighting art exist for a reason. Usually it’s because they the most generally effective within the context given. Unless you can simultaneously change the context at the same time as you engage a tactic from a different context, you are taking a huge risk for possibly little reward.

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[QUOTE=BKR;2987513]When bridging, angle feet/legs away (this is when in side control/scarf) at about 45 degrees. Bridge up, then accelerate down/away. You make the space that way on the way down in which to shrimp/frame etc.

30+ years of Judo, and when my BJJ coach showed it, I got goosebumps… and yeah, I knew how to shrimp and hip escape already.

I already knew the bridge towards head thing.[/QUOTE]

Lol… that’s awesome. This is how I teach it as well.

Knee and elbow together on the way down.

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If you have specific questions I can answer them in a video tutorial tonight.

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[QUOTE=AcerTempest;2987533]And I don’t let my white belts do sutemi waza.
And when I, as a certified referee, see a white belt or a young child do sutemi waza in a tournament, I know who is going to lose and why.

At a recent coaching clinic for USA Judo coaches I was at, I recently told all of the coaches in my state that I could tell whose coaches were failing them based on this.

The existence, and even occasional successful of such tactics by high level athletes does not, in my opinion, justify there use in lieu of more fundamentally sound strategies.

For every 1 Mohammed Ali against foreman, there are a dozen Conor McGregors in the 10th against Mayweather because they tried to Mohammed Ali.
For every Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki, there are a hundred kids that wind up “pulling bottom mount” when they attempt a sacrifice or a guard pull.

The fundamental tactics of any legitimate fighting art exist for a reason. Usually it’s because they the most generally effective within the context given. Unless you can simultaneously change the context at the same time as you engage a tactic from a different context, you are taking a huge risk for possibly little reward.[/QUOTE]

Add in Seoi Otoshi on both knees to the list of BS coaches teach inappropriately to kids, too.

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[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2987534]Lol… that’s awesome. This is how I teach it as well.

Knee and elbow together on the way down.[/QUOTE]

Yep, he had a couple of escapes from there depending on exactly how the guy on top reacts, and which pin you were being held in.

I swear, I still shake my head over it. I taught it at judo the very next night, and told them I was sorry I had been so ill-informed for so long…

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[QUOTE=BKR;2987539]Add in Seoi Otoshi on both knees to the list of BS coaches teach inappropriately to kids, too.[/QUOTE]

Ehh…
Less likely to cost them a bunch of matches on that one. Just gonna retard their Judo development for a bit. I can live with that, though I am not happy about it.

I DO teach that, but only AFTER I show a proper seoi-nage. And O Goshi. And O soto Gari.

It comes fairly early in our curriculum though, because it IS a very high percentage throw at every level of tournament competition and DOESN’T put you directly in a pin when it fails.

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For me, it wasn’t something “new” I learned, but when I started using funk rolls to sweep from side control that was a game changer. I can hit it pretty reliably on the black belts in my club. There is a blue belt who was a D1 wrestler than when I start on it he can counter about 50% of the time.
Anyway here are a couple of videos:

//youtu.be/A2U3YmP6VRs

//youtu.be/l-0XrDAdBuA

//youtu.be/wO1kS8wmP2Y

My set up for it is usually after a hip escape attempt, if I can shoot my arms in around that leg, it’s on.

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[QUOTE=AcerTempest;2987533]And I don’t let my white belts do sutemi waza.
And when I, as a certified referee, see a white belt or a young child do sutemi waza in a tournament, I know who is going to lose and why.

At a recent coaching clinic for USA Judo coaches I was at, I recently told all of the coaches in my state that I could tell whose coaches were failing them based on this.

The existence, and even occasional successful of such tactics by high level athletes does not, in my opinion, justify there use in lieu of more fundamentally sound strategies.

For every 1 Mohammed Ali against foreman, there are a dozen Conor McGregors in the 10th against Mayweather because they tried to Mohammed Ali.
For every Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki, there are a hundred kids that wind up “pulling bottom mount” when they attempt a sacrifice or a guard pull.

The fundamental tactics of any legitimate fighting art exist for a reason. Usually it’s because they the most generally effective within the context given. Unless you can simultaneously change the context at the same time as you engage a tactic from a different context, you are taking a huge risk for possibly little reward.[/QUOTE]
I make fun of guard pullers, but they win plenty of matches in submission only tournaments.

Hell, in non-striking matches without points, there is a whole group of high level players that will invite their opponent to mount for the opportunity to catch a leglock off the bottom mount.

And Randy Lewis made a career out of inviting people to grab his leg and then turning their position into a losing proposition with just a slight adjustment in high level wrestling.

John Smith won two gold medals in the Olympics hitting a low shot single off a stance that many old timers still refuse to teach.

For that matter, Sambo practitioners offer their legs for single leg takedowns to anyone foolish enough to take the bait and hit a single leg on them.

Funky players and Esqui-jitsu makes the games more entertaining for everyone and exposes vulnerabilities in the dogma and popular models.

Complex environments mean that there are several peaks of fitness available for people to achieve utility.

Regarding sutemi waza, its in the kata, its in the Gokyo, and uki waza style fireman carry’s are a thing of beauty (with or without grabbing the leg).

As a brown belt in Judo who was a former wrestler, I had a spoiled existence when doing randori or competing against other kyu grades.

When I entered black belt divisions in Judo before spending years adjusting my “wrestler in a jacket” game to make an earnest attempt to actually learn Judo instead of wrestling in a gi,
I was decimated, losing match after match any time I went for a single leg because my black belt Judo division opponents would counter with sumi gaeshi or Uchimata.

So, sutemi waza is very useful, in the right context, in Judo, and is an embodiment of maximum efficiency in the presence of the right opportunity.