Favourite Escapes WITH DETAILS You Learnt Later That Changed The Game

Martial Arts Training Forums BJJ and Advanced Grappling Forum
21

[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;2987542]For me, it wasn’t something “new” I learned, but when I started using funk rolls to sweep from side control that was a game changer. I can hit it pretty reliably on the black belts in my club. There is a blue belt who was a D1 wrestler than when I start on it he can counter about 50% of the time.

My set up for it is usually after a hip escape attempt, if I can shoot my arms in around that leg, it’s on.[/QUOTE]

This is really cool, thanks for sharing.

In fact, other than two troll attempts, these responses overall are awesome.

I’ve been wondering why I haven’t been getting much out of bridging to create space, and the elbow to knee, accelerate down after hip bumping makes perfect sense. I’ve been accelerating up to try to create space through upwards momentum, but thinking through it logically, it doesn’t work. I can accelerate down quicker than I could ever gain enough momentum against their weight and gravity upwards.

I knew you cunts would deliver.

22

[QUOTE=battlefields;2987559]This is really cool, thanks for sharing.

In fact, other than two troll attempts, these responses overall are awesome.

I’ve been wondering why I haven’t been getting much out of bridging to create space, and the elbow to knee, accelerate down after hip bumping makes perfect sense. I’ve been accelerating up to try to create space through upwards momentum, but thinking through it logically, it doesn’t work. I can accelerate down quicker than I could ever gain enough momentum against their weight and gravity upwards.

I knew you cunts would deliver.[/QUOTE]

I rarely venture into this area of the site because not an expert or even that good. Perchance the problem is lack of an explosive bridge. Acceleration and explosiveness are two different animals.

can i still be a cunt?

23

Be the pebble:

//youtu.be/E5pZ7uR6v8c

24

[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2987557]I make fun of guard pullers, but they win plenty of matches in submission only tournaments.

Hell, in non-striking matches without points, there is a whole group of high level players that will invite their opponent to mount for the opportunity to catch a leglock off the bottom mount.

And Randy Lewis made a career out of inviting people to grab his leg and then turning their position into a losing proposition with just a slight adjustment in high level wrestling.

John Smith won two gold medals in the Olympics hitting a low shot single off a stance that many old timers still refuse to teach.

For that matter, Sambo practitioners offer their legs for single leg takedowns to anyone foolish enough to take the bait and hit a single leg on them.

Funky players and Esqui-jitsu makes the games more entertaining for everyone and exposes vulnerabilities in the dogma and popular models.

Complex environments mean that there are several peaks of fitness available for people to achieve utility.

Regarding sutemi waza, its in the kata, its in the Gokyo, and uki waza style fireman carry’s are a thing of beauty (with or without grabbing the leg).

As a brown belt in Judo who was a former wrestler, I had a spoiled existence when doing randori or competing against other kyu grades.

When I entered black belt divisions in Judo before spending years adjusting my “wrestler in a jacket” game to make an earnest attempt to actually learn Judo instead of wrestling in a gi,
I was decimated, losing match after match any time I went for a single leg because my black belt Judo division opponents would counter with sumi gaeshi or Uchimata.

So, sutemi waza is very useful, in the right context, in Judo, and is an embodiment of maximum efficiency in the presence of the right opportunity.[/QUOTE]
I love sacrafice throws and pride myself on being a throwback/old school player.

I have also had the pleasure of watching Paulo Miayo proverbially skull fuck hordes of the best black belts in the world with only shooting one takedown in the last 10 years.

25

[QUOTE=hungryjoe;2987560]I rarely venture into this area of the site because not an expert or even that good. Perchance the problem is lack of an explosive bridge. Acceleration and explosiveness are two different animals.

can i still be a cunt?[/QUOTE]

The explosive bridge is not the issue (for me, I think, I feel like I can thrust my hips with the best of them), it is the acceleration down that creates the space and that is what I am hypothesizing about my own game. I understand what you mean about the difference between explosiveness and acceleration, but I wasn’t making that distinction in my theorising.

You’ll always be one of my favourite cunts on here, bro. (Sig that, I’ll allow it)

26

[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2987557]I make fun of guard pullers, but they win plenty of matches in submission only tournaments.

Hell, in non-striking matches without points, there is a whole group of high level players that will invite their opponent to mount for the opportunity to catch a leglock off the bottom mount.

And Randy Lewis made a career out of inviting people to grab his leg and then turning their position into a losing proposition with just a slight adjustment in high level wrestling.

John Smith won two gold medals in the Olympics hitting a low shot single off a stance that many old timers still refuse to teach.

For that matter, Sambo practitioners offer their legs for single leg takedowns to anyone foolish enough to take the bait and hit a single leg on them.

Funky players and Esqui-jitsu makes the games more entertaining for everyone and exposes vulnerabilities in the dogma and popular models.

Complex environments mean that there are several peaks of fitness available for people to achieve utility.

Regarding sutemi waza, its in the kata, its in the Gokyo, and uki waza style fireman carry’s are a thing of beauty (with or without grabbing the leg).

As a brown belt in Judo who was a former wrestler, I had a spoiled existence when doing randori or competing against other kyu grades.

When I entered black belt divisions in Judo before spending years adjusting my “wrestler in a jacket” game to make an earnest attempt to actually learn Judo instead of wrestling in a gi,
I was decimated, losing match after match any time I went for a single leg because my black belt Judo division opponents would counter with sumi gaeshi or Uchimata.

So, sutemi waza is very useful, in the right context, in Judo, and is an embodiment of maximum efficiency in the presence of the right opportunity.[/QUOTE]

Sure. It’s also a crutch that prevents people from ever learning to throw properly standing up. You learn to throw people standing because that is how you protect your posture and structure.
Sutemi-waza is for those situations where your opponents structure cannot be disrupted in any other way except by sacrificing your own, OR where your own structure has already been compromised.
Treating it as a go-to tactic for beginners is a good way for them to never learn proper posture and structure.
Context is everything, and had you been taught Judo from the beginning as a standing art, with upright posture and movement, you would NOT have been decimated in those divisions. And the sutemi-waza and wrestling would still have been there for you IF you needed them, but the odds of needing them would have been severely reduced.
It’s in the kata because in the right circumstances it IS effective.
I would like to remind you that pulling single-leg X to an outside heel-hook is “in the kata” as well.
Try that in a Judo tournament and see how it works for you.

27

[QUOTE=AcerTempest;2987609]Sure. It’s also a crutch that prevents people from ever learning to throw properly standing up. You learn to throw people standing because that is how you protect your posture and structure.
Sutemi-waza is for those situations where your opponents structure cannot be disrupted in any other way except by sacrificing your own, OR where your own structure has already been compromised.
Treating it as a go-to tactic for beginners is a good way for them to never learn proper posture and structure.
Context is everything, and had you been taught Judo from the beginning as a standing art, with upright posture and movement, you would NOT have been decimated in those divisions. And the sutemi-waza and wrestling would still have been there for you IF you needed them, but the odds of needing them would have been severely reduced.
It’s in the kata because in the right circumstances it IS effective.
I would like to remind you that pulling single-leg X to an outside heel-hook is “in the kata” as well.
Try that in a Judo tournament and see how it works for you.[/QUOTE]
Kodokan teachers (8th-9th Dan) do - based on historical research - sometimes tell in Nage no Kata seminars that sutemi-waza were much more effective (and thus used) when there still were people in a heavy armor on a battlefield around using them.

I agree that sutemi-waza should be an option, but never the go-to. Not in Judo competition and certainly not in self-defence.

Teaching sutemi-waza to children may result in success in competition as they do not have the posture and structure to defend properly, but hinders the development of said posture and structure. Same as with many other things people teach children, like e.g. bad form: It works for them in competition if they simply have an advantage in training time or genetically. And they completely and utterly fail around under 16 and older, dropping out, because they lack the basics to build upon for further development needed in these brackets.

28

[QUOTE=Falenay;2987611]Kodokan teachers (8th-9th Dan) do - based on historical research - sometimes tell in Nage no Kata seminars that sutemi-waza were much more effective (and thus used) when there still were people in a heavy armor on a battlefield around using them.

I agree that sutemi-waza should be an option, but never the go-to. Not in Judo competition and certainly not in self-defence.

Teaching sutemi-waza to children may result in success in competition as they do not have the posture and structure to defend properly, but hinders the development of said posture and structure. Same as with many other things people teach children, like e.g. bad form: It works for them in competition if they simply have an advantage in training time or genetically. And they completely and utterly fail around under 16 and older, dropping out, because they lack the basics to build upon for further development needed in these brackets.[/QUOTE]

But see, that’s exactly my point. It DOESN’t work for them competition either. You know who it works for in competition? Older, less athletic, but still technically MONSTROUS black belts who can time it to take advantage of positional mistakes by younger, stronger players.

You are ASKING to be pinned if you do a poor sutemi-waza. And that’s what happens. A LOT.

29

[QUOTE=AcerTempest;2987541]Ehh…
Less likely to cost them a bunch of matches on that one. Just gonna retard their Judo development for a bit. I can live with that, though I am not happy about it.

I DO teach that, but only AFTER I show a proper seoi-nage. And O Goshi. And O soto Gari.

It comes fairly early in our curriculum though, because it IS a very high percentage throw at every level of tournament competition and DOESN’T put you directly in a pin when it fails.[/QUOTE]

You redeemed yourseklf in the second sentence, thankfully. Sort of, anyway.

So, at what age do you teach Seoi Otoshi (on knees) ?

30

[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2987534]Lol… that’s awesome. This is how I teach it as well.

Knee and elbow together on the way down.[/QUOTE]

As I was pondering this last night (which is most of what I do nowadays instead of training), I remembered he also had a different way (to me) of placing his hands. As opposed to the “standard” forearm under neck (which I never did anyway).

So if I remember correctly, inside hand on hip, outside hand he would dig into/under near side of neck/shoulder, then can use your elbow to really pry the guys head up/away with the point of your elbow.

I did that in Judo and made people squeal, literally.

31

[QUOTE=AcerTempest;2987609]Sure. It’s also a crutch that prevents people from ever learning to throw properly standing up. You learn to throw people standing because that is how you protect your posture and structure.
Sutemi-waza is for those situations where your opponents structure cannot be disrupted in any other way except by sacrificing your own, OR where your own structure has already been compromised.
Treating it as a go-to tactic for beginners is a good way for them to never learn proper posture and structure.
Context is everything, and had you been taught Judo from the beginning as a standing art, with upright posture and movement, you would NOT have been decimated in those divisions. And the sutemi-waza and wrestling would still have been there for you IF you needed them, but the odds of needing them would have been severely reduced.
It’s in the kata because in the right circumstances it IS effective.
I would like to remind you that pulling single-leg X to an outside heel-hook is “in the kata” as well.
Try that in a Judo tournament and see how it works for you.[/QUOTE]
There is a certain truth to what you say,
but like everything else,
there are profound exceptions.

For instance, in sports competition Judo at every level,
uki waza style fireman’s carry (with or without the leg grab) is a thing of beauty and highly efficacious.
For children, for adults, for middle aged adults.
If Uke pushes into you, you can make them go for a ride with uki waza style fireman’s carry with a high percentage.

Regarding self-defense, Judo as it is often practiced, has profound and gaping holes,
because it ignores the virtues and possibilities of striking as set ups to throws and as counters to throws.
And Olympic Sports Judo now bans leg grabs, and many submissions that were formerly held in the Judo practice repertoire.

Regarding how I learned Judo,
it’s true, I learned Judo after I had wrestled scholastically for six years,
and frankly the only reason I took up Judo,
is because the place I was at after high school,
did not have much of an adult wrestling competition or club circuit,
but was right in between two large military bases that each had very good Judo clubs,
and hosted frequent Judo competitions.

So, my first perspectives on Judo were certainly through the eyes of a wrestler in a gi.
After 27 years of practicing Judo,
and getting to learn Judo and relearn Judo from several different high level teachers,
and with several different bodies as I have aged,
and having gone to Japan a few times to practice Judo,
and practicing Judo in several other countries that have good Judo,
I have grown to love Judo for its own sake.

But like most young people and people new people to Judo,
my first myopic lens to view Judo from was usefulness in Randori and competition.
And like almost everybody else without a few decades in to Judo,
I relied on my athleticism, and what I found immediately utility in during my own Randori and competition Judo environments.

When it comes to grappling styles, in my middle age, I am promiscuous and open minded.

And, I am still trying to learn Judo, and will probably stop when I can no longer move enough to walk or move around on the ground.

32

[QUOTE=hungryjoe;2987560]I rarely venture into this area of the site because not an expert or even that good. Perchance the problem is lack of an explosive bridge. Acceleration and explosiveness are two different animals.

can i still be a cunt?[/QUOTE]

No, not really. I mean, you can be that if you wish.

If the guy on top is pinning you correctly, you are not going to make space on the way up unless huge strength differential, and maybe not even then.

Sometimes multiple iterations of the movement are necessary.

33

[QUOTE=Wooden Mike;2987620]I am pretty sure this is why “creating space” is a fundamental skill esp in BJJ, because more space = more opportunity to pow, especially out of a bad position. And it only gets more important as the weight of your partner increases, naturally.

The conservation of energy principles of judo/BJJ support this, I believe, in that the overall goal is to minimize the need for a lot of energy use/struggle by using distance to compensate, which is why when escaping, just a little space and the right timing with just enough pow works like a magic trick.

Easy example, side control submissions. Giving no space to uke, and shifting your weight properly over time…nobody’s going nowhere. So making space becomes essential for breaking a relatively easy submission that can be practically impossible to escape especially if someone bigger, stronger locks you in this.

Here is an expert showing what I mean.

//youtu.be/PHDE9mw9Vmo
[/QUOTE]

He should demo that on a guy who knows how to do modified scarf hold correctly, or, does it correctly, and is trying to hold him down, and does not make mistakes.

Not saying it won’t work, but so many of escapes seem to depend on uke holding on for dear life and not making any adjustments.

In more general terms, there are two ways to escape pins. You can make space, or you can get the guys body supported on yours somehow and roll.

Of course, you can use those two together.

34

[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2987630]There is a certain truth to what you say,
but like everything else,
there are profound exceptions.

For instance, in sports competition Judo at every level,
uki waza style fireman’s carry (with or without the leg grab) is a thing of beauty and highly efficacious.
For children, for adults, for middle aged adults.
If Uke pushes into you, you can make them go for a ride with uki waza style fireman’s carry with a high percentage.

Regarding self-defense, Judo as it is often practiced, has profound and gaping holes,
because it ignores the virtues and possibilities of striking as set ups to throws and as counters to throws.
And Olympic Sports Judo now bans leg grabs, and many submissions that were formerly held in the Judo practice repertoire.

Regarding how I learned Judo,
it’s true, I learned Judo after I had wrestled scholastically for six years,
and frankly the only reason I took up Judo,
is because the place I was at after high school,
did not have much of an adult wrestling competition or club circuit,
but was right in between two large military bases that each had very good Judo clubs,
and hosted frequent Judo competitions.

So, my first perspectives on Judo were certainly through the eyes of a wrestler in a gi.
After 27 years of practicing Judo,
and getting to learn Judo and relearn Judo from several different high level teachers,
and with several different bodies as I have aged,
and having gone to Japan a few times to practice Judo,
and practicing Judo in several other countries that have good Judo,
I have grown to love Judo for its own sake.

But like most young people and people new people to Judo,
my first myopic lens to view Judo from was usefulness in Randori and competition.
And like almost everybody else without a few decades in to Judo,
I relied on my athleticism, and what I found immediately utility in during my own Randori and competition Judo environments.

When it comes to grappling styles, in my middle age, I am promiscuous and open minded.

And, I am still trying to learn Judo, and will probably stop when I can no longer move enough to walk or move around on the ground.[/QUOTE]

Most major judo organizations do not even allow sutemi waza below a certain age and/or skill level.

There are two aspects to that, safety, and development. For similar reasons, certain other throwing principles are not allowed, including Seoi Otoshi to one or both knees, and Koshi Guruma-like throws that involve any sort of head-lock looking grip.

I have a special name for judo that revolves around the around the head grip.

I call it “Neck Judo”. It can be highly effective, no doubt, but being overly dependent on it from a young age causes problems later on, with other factors as moderators.

Personally, I think sutemi waza are beautiful, and highly efficient under certain circumstances. There are not so many specialists in it these days. I want my students to have one or two that they are good at, mostly for surprise purposes, and for certain gripping situations. So far no takers, though. I’ve out-traditioned and out-fundamentalized myself.

But again, the timing and body skills for truly good sutemi waza do not come easy, and are not really basic skills to some degree.

35

[QUOTE=BKR;2987636]Most major judo organizations do not even allow sutemi waza below a certain age and/or skill level.

There are two aspects to that, safety, and development. For similar reasons, certain other throwing principles are not allowed, including Seoi Otoshi to one or both knees, and Koshi Guruma-like throws that involve any sort of head-lock looking grip.

I have a special name for judo that revolves around the around the head grip.

I call it “Neck Judo”. It can be highly effective, no doubt, but being overly dependent on it from a young age causes problems later on, with other factors as moderators.

Personally, I think sutemi waza are beautiful, and highly efficient under certain circumstances. There are not so many specialists in it these days. I want my students to have one or two that they are good at, mostly for surprise purposes, and for certain gripping situations. So far no takers, though. I’ve out-traditioned and out-fundamentalized myself.

But again, the timing and body skills for truly good sutemi waza do not come easy, and are not really basic skills to some degree.[/QUOTE]
I stopped teaching head and arm throw to the very young because they focus on the head instead of the arm, and end up horrifying everyone, including me, by tossing their uke with uke’s head and neck without regard to keeping the arm.

I too have kids focus more on standing throws then sutemi waza (and adults too for that matter).

But, I maintain: a reasonable exception is uki waza style fireman’s carry.

That sutemi waza is just fun for the whole family and high percentage across rulesets, including juvenile wrestling, juvenile Judo, Olympic wrestling, and Olympic Judo.

Even the Sambo guys like it, and those guys wear shorts with gi jackets, and that is just weird.

36

[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2987645]I stopped teaching head and arm throw to the very young because they focus on the head instead of the arm, and end up horrifying everyone, including me, by tossing their uke with uke’s head and neck without regard to keeping the arm.

I too have kids focus more on standing throws then sutemi waza (and adults too for that matter).

But, I maintain: a reasonable exception is uki waza style fireman’s carry.

That sutemi waza is just fun for the whole family and high percentage across rulesets, including juvenile wrestling, juvenile Judo, Olympic wrestling, and Olympic Judo.

Even the Sambo guys like it, and those guys wear shorts with gi jackets, and that is just weird.[/QUOTE]

My experience varies from yours regarding the uki waza style fireman’s carry.

In fact, it’s Uki Waza, not Kata Guruma.

And it’s not for kids. Of course, if you mean by kids, competitive, relatively experienced teenagers, OK, sure.

Somehow I think you are joking…

37

[QUOTE=BKR;2987646]My experience varies from yours regarding the uki waza style fireman’s carry.

In fact, it’s Uki Waza, not Kata Guruma.

And it’s not for kids. Of course, if you mean by kids, competitive, relatively experienced teenagers, OK, sure.

Somehow I think you are joking…[/QUOTE]
I didn’t call that sutemi waza Kata Guruma for the same reason you probably don’t.
Although I am prone to misspell Guruma if I am not slow and careful.

38

[QUOTE=AcerTempest;2987609]I would like to remind you that pulling single-leg X to an outside heel-hook is “in the kata” as well.
Try that in a Judo tournament and see how it works for you…[/QUOTE]

[video=youtube_share;cbNRLfFM0OA]https://youtu.be/cbNRLfFM0OA[/video]

39

[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2987650][video=youtube_share;cbNRLfFM0OA]https://youtu.be/cbNRLfFM0OA[/video][/QUOTE]

I didn’t put this on here to insinuate it’s a viable Olympic Judo strategy. I put it on here to show those Kata creators were on to something.

40

[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2987652]I didn’t put this on here to insinuate it’s a viable Olympic Judo strategy. I put it on here to show those Kata creators were on to something.[/QUOTE]

In the Katame no Kata, it is a action reaction sequence from an attempted Tomoe Nage.

That’s how I learned it originally anyway.