[quote=Ming Loyalist;2462750]i don’t think that any degree of skill in judo justifies CK being the sort of douchebag asshole that he is (at least online.)
i believe that zendokan was in the process of exposing CK to be far less of an expert than he claims to be, not only in judo but also in the field of medicine. i for one am very interested in his findings because shutting up CK might make discussions on JF more interesting.[/quote]
What specific claims has he made? I remember a lot of nebulous claims about being some kind of medical expert but nothing specific
The online remarks of CK really rang a bell with all the bloated loudmouths I met an open mat satyurdays at the judoschool.
‘well if you’re my level then…’
‘sweet! wanna do some randori?’
’ omg no! do you know what my rank is?!’
‘…?’
I also noiced how that one guy responded to judonl: ’ oh you’re dutch, well we say here the dutch (think they)are always right’ or something to that degree, then he says ‘joke’ but it’s an odd way to respond to a new poster and i read passive agression in that response.
basically what those guys remind me off is that weird fat xtian woman from wifeswap, but instead of screaming ‘ITS NOT XTIANNNNNN’ they scream ’ IT’S NOT JUDOOOO’
[quote=Lu Tze;2462911]He basically acts like he’s the reincarnation of Mifune’s jock strap.[/quote]The guy clearly does know a lot about Judo (or at least a fuck-load more than me). But yeah, his posting style is irritating beyond belief. Not least his habit of answering every question with a pages long anecdote about how his students are, like the OP, retarded for not knowing everything already. And the constant fucking appeals to his own authority when it’s at least notionally secret who he is.
And the smilies. Oh my Christ the fucking passive-aggressive smilies.
[quote=Lu Tze;2462911]Glad it’s not just me who’s put off by that crap btw.[/quote]A lot of good info does get dropped there, if you can tolerate the bullshit that falls with it.
[quote=Lebell;2463047]The online remarks of CK really rang a bell with all the bloated loudmouths I met an open mat satyurdays at the judoschool.
‘well if you’re my level then…’
‘sweet! wanna do some randori?’
’ omg no! do you know what my rank is?!’
‘…?’
I also noiced how that one guy responded to judonl: ’ oh you’re dutch, well we say here the dutch (think they)are always right’ or something to that degree, then he says ‘joke’ but it’s an odd way to respond to a new poster and i read passive agression in that response.
basically what those guys remind me off is that weird fat xtian woman from wifeswap, but instead of screaming ‘ITS NOT XTIANNNNNN’ they scream ’ IT’S NOT JUDOOOO’
For what it’s worth (i.e. nothing) even in BJJ with it’s already fairly dense terminology I have a tendency to try and codify techniques/movements that aren’t specifically named by my instructor. Sometimes I even rename stuff in my head so that it fits my pedantic brain better.
I find it useful particularly when going through new set ups, etc. An example would be that vid Aesopian put up in the long long ago with modified scarf hold submissions; that position is now “Judo side control, far arm telephoned” in my head.
I think the preference for approaching grappling like this is a largely personal thing, getting bent out of shape about it either way seems unnecessary.
The only times i use specific terminology is when i was asking a teacher for instructions, but more often i just ‘physically’ ask my question (most instructors ive trained under allowed me to do that) asking stuff like: ‘so im overstretching here with this? or do i lift the hip like that in order to…?’
etc.
[quote=PointyShinyBurn;2463065]The guy clearly does know a lot about Judo (or at least a fuck-load more than me).[/quote]Sure. Not questioning his level of knowledge, just his attitude.
[quote=Kintanon;2462739]I would like to make the small point to BKR that being Gods Gift to Judo does not necessarily make one Gods Gift to communication. The ability to communicate complex concepts with simple phrases makes learning the intellectual side of things easier. Attaching a series of physical actions to a single word or simple phrase makes it easier to remember that series when you are trying to apply it. Clear communication is important whenever you are teaching something to someone. I see no reason why a Judo instructor would be averse to adopting BJJ terminology where it made sense to improve communication with his students. Just as we use the Judo terminology for most of the throws we use because it’s a very clear way to communicate exactly what we mean.
I honestly can’t see how anyone can object to assigning a simple name to any complex series which has to be communicated on a semi regular basis.[/quote]
I’m not averse to others doing it if they want to. Judo, as an art separate but related to BJJ, does not do what you suggest. Judo seems to get along fine with out doing exactly as BJJ does. I teach Judo. And no, I’m not an elitist. I’ve done some BJJ, and would do more if I could make it work with my work family schedule. I really enjoyed it!
Again, your points are well taken, Kintanon, and I appreciate that you are a very serious student of BJJ and apparently grappling in general.
Personally I would just like to see Judo for grappling more than for the sport of Judo especially as the rules of the sport keep changing in a direction that I feel lessons Judo’s ability to deal with other grapplers.
[quote=BKR;2463169]I’m not averse to others doing it if they want to. Judo, as an art separate but related to BJJ, does not do what you suggest. Judo seems to get along fine with out doing exactly as BJJ does. I teach Judo. And no, I’m not an elitist. I’ve done some BJJ, and would do more if I could make it work with my work family schedule. I really enjoyed it!
Again, your points are well taken, Kintanon, and I appreciate that you are a very serious student of BJJ and apparently grappling in general.
Ben[/quote]
And this is where the debate should start. Does the refusal to admit the existence of things like butterfly guard as more than transitory positions on the way to Kesa Getame hurt the development of Judo in any way? Judo is still alive and evolving from what I can tell, but that evolution has been pretty glacial the last few decades and it has been hampered by the actions of people who don’t approve of anything changing “Their” Judo. Is that stagnation that will hurt Judo in the long run?
Because by choosing not to give a name to a position like that you are denying that it has any importance. If you find yourself in a position often enough, launching attacks from it, defending from it, etc… then you will name it. If you don’t find yourself in the position often enough to care about naming it then it clearly isn’t important enough in whatever you are doing to warrant much consideration. I personally see no reason why butterfly guard would ever need a name in Judo. The current focus and rules set is so heavily prejudiced against long term ground work that the idea that you would ever “Hang out” in that position is preposterous. However as more crosstraining occurs between BJJ and Judo maybe the position will get more play, maybe that leads to a time somewhere 20 years from now when butterfly guard “Has always been in Judo” and has a fancy japanese name to go with it.
Butterlfy guard has always been Judo. Its the first ever ‘guard position’ I was introduced to in Judo and the first guard sweeps I was taught. You make the mistake that because the current rules are neutering newaza that that has had some retroactive event on Judo in the past, that’s not true.
Neil Adams and Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki have both produced books and other resources showing butterfly guard sweeps and they definitely didn’t learn it from cross training with BJJ.
The last competition I entered an opponent dropped in for a technique on me and I killed it, but somehow got my gi or something caught and was stucj kind of off and to the front of him whilst he was turtled and couldn’t capitalise on the position. He realised this and moved backwards I rushed forward, unthinkingly, because I was worried about running out of time I got caught in butterfly guard and swept into a hold down and lost the match. :eusa_doh:
After the match I had a chat with him asked him if he’d done any BJJ his reply ‘What’s BJJ?’
[quote=judoka_uk;2463666]Butterlfy guard has always been Judo. Its the first ever ‘guard position’ I was introduced to in Judo and the first guard sweeps I was taught. You make the mistake that because the current rules are neutering newaza that that has had some retroactive event on Judo in the past, that’s not true.
Neil Adams and Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki have both produced books and other resources showing butterfly guard sweeps and they definitely didn’t learn it from cross training with BJJ.
The last competition I entered an opponent dropped in for a technique on me and I killed it, but somehow got my gi or something caught and was stucj kind of off and to the front of him whilst he was turtled and couldn’t capitalise on the position. He realised this and moved backwards I rushed forward, unthinkingly, because I was worried about running out of time I got caught in butterfly guard and swept into a hold down and lost the match. :eusa_doh:
After the match I had a chat with him asked him if he’d done any BJJ his reply ‘What’s BJJ?’[/quote]
Hmm. in Judo comps does your coach generally yell advice from the sidelines or not? Because if so, I can’t imagine NOT being able to yell “WATCH OUT FOR THE BUTTERFLY SWEEP!” as you rushed in there and have it be instantly understood. But in Judo terminology, there’s no way to do that as far as I know. So do you settle for the more generic “Watch out for the sweep!” which is a less efficient means of communication?
Of course, if there is no input from the sidelines in Judo, then it doesn’t matter. There is no need for rapid communication.
And yes, I know that the butterfly guard as a position has always been in Judo. I was talking about the term as opposed to the position.
[quote=Kintanon;2463690]Hmm. in Judo comps does your coach generally yell advice from the sidelines or not? Because if so, I can’t imagine NOT being able to yell “WATCH OUT FOR THE BUTTERFLY SWEEP!” as you rushed in there and have it be instantly understood. But in Judo terminology, there’s no way to do that as far as I know. So do you settle for the more generic “Watch out for the sweep!” which is a less efficient means of communication?
Of course, if there is no input from the sidelines in Judo, then it doesn’t matter. There is no need for rapid communication.
And yes, I know that the butterfly guard as a position has always been in Judo. I was talking about the term as opposed to the position.[/quote]
Fair enough.
I think my coach has only been at one competition I’ve competed at. Normally its just my team mates or me on my own. When I won my line up for my dan grade I didn’t know anyone else there I just went on my own. Its pretty unusual for recreational/club players like me to have a coach with them when they compete.
He may have shouted something like ‘watch out for the butterfly sweep/ sweep’, because he’s into the UFC and being a former international competitor from a strong newaza background when he heard about a BJJ gym nearby, a year or so ago, he went to a couple of sessions. So we are open to BJJ and have learnt abit about it so that now we tend to use the BJJ terminology, where appropriate in our club, because it just aids communication. However, when I started at the club no one used BJJ terms its only in the last year they’ve started to become used.
Though to be honest normally if you have to wait until your coach tells you to watch out for something before you start defending it, you’re probably going to get caught by it. When I ‘coach’ people its normally just -get your grip and throw or circle left etc… never stupid stuff like ‘O soto gari now’ because its always too late and their opponent can hear it too.
I’m trying to remember what he called it when I was first taught it and I honestly can’t remember. I know it definitely wasn’t butterfly sweep or butterfly guard I think it was something like ‘turnover off the back’ or maybe just ‘turnover into hold down’.
However that’s difficult to remember and differentiate so its much more helpful for people to be able to associate a name with a technique or positon especially a name they can google and look at pictures to help jog their memory hence why now we use BJJ words where Judo doesn’t have a word.
However that’s difficult to remember and differentiate so its much more helpful for people to be able to associate a name with a technique or positon especially a name they can google and look at pictures to help jog their memory hence why now we use BJJ words where Judo doesn’t have a word.[/quote]
So we entirely agree on every point here.
So the question becomes, why would you NOT use BJJ terms where appropriate as a reference when Judo doesn’t have a specific term for the position involved? Because my understanding of the argument was that there were “Old Skool” Judo players that objected to the mere IDEA that one would say “Butterfly Guard” inside the hallowed walls of a Judo school.
[quote=Kintanon;2463730]So we entirely agree on every point here.
So the question becomes, why would you NOT use BJJ terms where appropriate as a reference when Judo doesn’t have a specific term for the position involved? Because my understanding of the argument was that there were “Old Skool” Judo players that objected to the mere IDEA that one would say “Butterfly Guard” inside the hallowed walls of a Judo school.[/quote]
Sorry I should have been clearer that reason I responded to you in the first place was that I mistook your post for saying that Judo doesn’t have butterfly guard currently or in the past. I think we are pretty much in agreement.
I do agree that where Judo has no word and BJJ has a useful and sensible one that it is helpful to use the BJJ word. However, I’m at a university Judo club where everyone else is 18-25 a lot of people watch MMA or are aware of it and BJJ so I’m not at your typical Judo club.
I think there are those few people who object to the use of BJJ terms purely on the basis that they’re from BJJ I think they’re in the minority though. It is possible to teach things with the more imprecise terms in the dojo i.e ‘remember that reversal/ turnover off the back we did two weeks ago’ whilst you get into the butterfly guard position. Then everyone has a visual and chronological clue to remember it by. So I can understand why some older people are set in their ways and don’t want to change because they’ve managed to teach the position effectively in that way for 30 odd years. I think a lot of people place a high value on Judo’s roots in Japan and the etiquette and practices of Judo’s Japanese roots. That’s not a bad thing per say, in my view, but I think it can mean that people are resistant to importing terms from other martial arts espeically non Japanese ones and to anything they perceive as unnecessary change.
I just am of the opinion that there are better ways to communicate and using some BJJ terminology where appropriate is one of those ways.
