Coach Josh FTW. As long as that’s an unambiguous term in Judo, I would expect Judo players to be using it to describe the position. If it’s like saying “shoulder throw” in english though, I might expect some additional descriptors to be tagged onto it at some point.
I was under the impression that ‘hairi kata’ meant ‘entry forms’.
Depending on the situation. As my wife tells me all the time Judo terminology makes no sense outside of Judo in Japan. But I could be wrong.
Seoi Nage =/= shoulder throw Seoi Nage = back carry throw
I read this, I read the other thread, I read the betterjudo website and I can’t but help be puzzled by the “traditionalist”. Jigoro Kano wasn’t a traditionalist he was a modernizer, he took bits of jujutsu and what ever else he liked IE fireman’s carry and out came Judo that continued evolving under his watch till he died. Wouldn’t it be better to honor Judo’s tradition of continual evolution and growth vs trying to lock it in or even restrict it?
Maybe it’s just me, but “back carry throw” makes a lot more sense than “shoulder throw”, especially for morote seoi nage.
I used to have real problems fitting in for morote until the distinction was explained to me.
[quote=Coach Josh;2463793]Depending on the situation. As my wife tells me all the time Judo terminology makes no sense outside of Judo in Japan. But I could be wrong.
Seoi Nage =/= shoulder throw Seoi Nage = back carry throw[/quote]
Hmm if it was ‘Harai kata’ I could see how it could be ‘shoulder sweep’ after all ‘kata’ can mean shoulder as in kata guruma, but its not ‘harai’ but ‘hairi’, which from what I’ve read is a different word. Then again I speak no Japanese so may be wrong. I think a lot of the problems stems from trying to translate Japanese words that have been romanized without access to the original kanji.
According to Paul Nogaki on Judo forum ‘seoi’ means ‘to carry on ones back’ and ‘nageru’ means ‘to throw or toss’'. I think the ‘shoulder throw’ is just, as you say, a Western mistranslation that has stuck and has been institutionalised by certain NGB.
Pretty much UK. I just get my wife to tell me what they are saying on the videos and she will give me the jist of it not a word for word translation because somethings are not easy to translate or they are terms she has no knowledge of the word being used. She just gets it from the context of the speech.
Ok we just went over the video together and the first kanji says roughly over the shoulder belt grab attack when on your back. He never names the position just the situations. Alot of when you are here grab like this and move like this. Pretty much this reiterates what the old school guys were saying. Judo guys don’t name every position generally the situation.
I am with the BJJ guys on the names for ground positions though.
Hairi does mean entry so it was my mistake on that one.
An interesting piece on the way language affects how we think about things:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/06/22/new-nicaraguan-sign-language-shows-how-language-affects-thought/
Important points for those who are in a rush:
In the spontaneously-arising Nicaraguan Sign Language, which until recently did not have a term for “left” or “right”, (deaf) individuals without signs for left and right were demonstrably outperformed at spatial awareness and reasoning by those of latter generations, who did have words/signs for those concepts.
[quote=Ming Loyalist;2464057]
as for my involvement at judo forum, when i gave up teaching chinese martial arts to study judo seriously, i used the forum and associated website a great deal as a resource, however because of the way you and others responded to my posts led me to bring my judo questions back to bullshido, where i seem to get very good, very technical answers to my questions, without the condescension and snarky tone.[/quote]
Years ago I used to train with a buddy of mine, who held a 4th dan at judo.
Learned a shitload about variations and details of a technique.
So we had access to the uni dojo, and we were using the openmat time for training.
We were doing uchi komi and gradually also put some counters in there to work on timing and opening the guard (in standup) to work on the rhytm of the steps to a throw.
However he forgot his belt and we were both wearing white belts.
you feel it coming dont you?
Soon enough the standard judodoods come walking in.
They look at us…they mumble something, i hear this smugg giggles etc.
After 20 minutes some dudes walk up to us, they have black belts and offer to teach us stuff.
’ really? would you do that? am i doing it wrong?’
’ well i didnt really watch but…’
’ so you just want to teach me? is that it?’
’ wel im a black belt and…’
during randori time the tatami got cleaned with smugg faces of the black belts.
And no i didnt ‘hold em up’ when i threw em, they wasted that privilige.
Afterwards one of the pencilnecked black belts asked us:’ no way you’re black belts, what level are you?’
i said: ’ good question, wrong timing!’
“tatami got cleaned with smug faces” has to be one of the greatest lines ever, I need to go do some push ups.
I do not see that there was any refusal to to admit that something called in BJJ “Butterfly Guard” exists in Judo. The NAME “Butterfly Guard” does not exist in the Judo vocabulary, but the position certainly does.
With respect, I think your “evolution of Judo” comment is a strawman arguement. I think it’s unintentional on your part, though.
Judo has evolved/changed in it’s application, particularly the sport application a lot even since I started in 1980. Some of this is for the worse in many ways, in many people’s opinion (mine included). Rules have changed, which changes how people train, although Judo, after apparently around 1915 or so at least, did not necessarily allow permanent ne waza battles in shiai, except under KOSEN rules, which were not that widespread in Japan.
Now, if you mean evolve in the sense of adding stuff from other arts, self defense, mma applications, etc., you are correct. You have to consider though that Judo is a conservative art/sport that comes from a different culture than “modern” martial arts. Judo HAS been influenced by different forms of wrestling, including the various ethnic wrestling forms from the former Soviet Union. Recent rules changes have sought to eliminate some fo that. De-evolution? Evolution? Return to roots of Judo?
Not at all unimportant. Judo, as an art/sport, has not since its inception has given few specific names to what are in Judo considered transitional or maybe I should say “non finishing” positions, either standing or on the ground. This is simply how the system was designed and has been passed on since 1882, as far as I can tell. Judo has been taught in that way, and continues to be taught that way. There are some positions that have names, do osae for closed guard, maybe shrimping/swimming shrimp, turtle, on the ground, and some names for different tai sabaki (basic ones at least), and postures standing (shizenhontai and jigohontai left and right) and basic movement (suri ashi, tsugi ashi, ayumi ashi), and relative gripping (ai yotsu and kenka yotsu). There may be more, but in the west, those are the common ones.
Point is, Judo is different than BJJ in that and other ways. Saying Judo is behind the times because of it I have to disagree with.
Now you are just being sarcastic. How much Judo gets done in shiai by the average judoka? Percentage wise? Not much. Nobody stands over us in ne waza randori and demands we “spazz out”, or stop after no progress is made over a few seconds. MAYBE in a super competitive dojo that would happen.
Regards,
Ben
[quote=Coach Josh;2463770]Hairi Kata literally meaning shoulder sweep but the position is the same Judo terminology focusing on the movement not necessarily the position.
YouTube - Judo - Hairi Kata (sweep) - Kashiwazaki[/quote]
Josh, Hairi Kata means “entry method” in judo terminology. Sweep is harai, right, like Harai Goshi? You can use the same term for throwing, different entry methods for say, Uchi Mata, as say, Kosei Inoue shows in his DVDs.
Kashiwazaki sensei is showing entry methods/forms.
Ben
[quote=Coach Josh;2463793]Depending on the situation. As my wife tells me all the time Judo terminology makes no sense outside of Judo in Japan. But I could be wrong.
Seoi Nage =/= shoulder throw Seoi Nage = back carry throw[/quote]
It’s hAIri kata in the Kashiwazaki video(s). Sweep is harAI/barAI. I think there is a big difference. Ask your wife if the kanji for Hairi/entry is the same as for harai/sweep. Crap, I’ll look it up on google.
But she is right about Judo japanese vs regular Japanese!
Seoi Nage is back carry, not shoulder throw as far as I know. In Judo at least.
edit: Harai Goshi 払い腰, for example.
The best I could find on hairi is “hairu”, being to enter. I could not copy/paste the kanji.
I give up. Ben
Ben
[quote=BKR;2464161]It’s hAIri kata in the Kashiwazaki video(s). Sweep is harAI/barAI. I think there is a big difference. Ask your wife if the kanji for Hairi/entry is the same as for harai/sweep. Crap, I’ll look it up on google.
But she is right about Judo japanese vs regular Japanese!
Seoi Nage is back carry, not shoulder throw as far as I know. In Judo at least.
Ben[/quote]
You missed this post:
[quote=Coach Josh;2463979]Ok we just went over the video together and the first kanji says roughly over the shoulder belt grab attack when on your back. He never names the position just the situations. Alot of when you are here grab like this and move like this.
Hairi does mean entry so it was my mistake on that one.[/quote]
I’ve had a little think about what we used to call the positions before we adopted BJJ terminology. Half guard was ‘with one leg trapped’, Guard was ‘in between the legs’ and Turtle was ‘uke on all fours’. Whenever we did newaza randori we would be told to either start in one of those positions or from the knees.
I was at a session once where Japanese female third dan taught standing guard sweeps, they were introduced as something like ‘methods of defence when on your back against a standing opponent’.
Don’t really know where I’m going with this but just kind of running through how Judo has dealt with not having names for transitional positions.
I’m sitting here at work with nothing to do, so here’s an anecdote for everyone.
Tonight at Judo practice, we worked on throwing while moving sideways. This can be done in a many ways, of course. Name wise, you might call sideways movement while sliding the feet laterally a form of tsugi tsugi ashi, specifically yoko tsugi ashi, but really, nobody uses that terminology in Judo.
The two students tonight (everyone else was out of town/sick/injured/travelling) are a nikyu (blue belt) and an ikkyu (brown belt) (second and first kyu respectively). They both move sideways reasonably well, so no need for instruction on that. No specific name for it given, just “throwing moving sideways”.
Next, we practiced basic tai sabaki (body control/turning) specifically back turning and front turning (Ura mawari and mae mawari respectively). But I just showed them what I wanted, although I have given them the names in the past).
Then we practiced an unnamed (to me at least) tai sabaki moving to the side, where you swing the trailing side of the (emphasis on moving from hips) between uke and tori while moving to the side, kind of stomping/driving that leg/foot to the ground.
Next, we practiced Ippon Seoinage moving the same way, using the same tai sabaki as above. This would constitute a “hairi kata” (entry method), for the particular throw. Movement was with both judoka taking a right hand sleeve and lapel grip (this would be ai yotsu), and moving/throwing to the sleeve hand (hikite in this case) side.
We then did this moving to the other side/opposite direction, so a left Ippon Seoi Nage from a right hand grip. We then further did both directions from a double lapel grip. THEN we switched to kenka yotsu sleeve and lapel grips, and did the same as above (both directions of movement).
Next, we practiced Kouchi Gari, moving to the sleeve side (tori), RH sleeve and lapel grip, (ai yotsu). Judoka will see where this is going, I am sure.
Next, same grip and direction of movement, we practiced tori attack with Kouchi Gari, uke avoids by moving his foot out of the way, tori continues across, using the same tai sabaki practiced earlier, and executes Ippon Seoi Nage.
Next, we practiced De Ashi Barai moving sideways, this time to tori left (lapel grip/tsurite) side. Uke and tori in migi shizentai (right natural posture, right foot forward). Then, you guessed it, tori attacks, uke avoids tori continues same tai sabaki practiced earlier to left Ippon Seoi Nage from right grip.
Then we switched to kenka yotsu (opposite grips), tori right and uke left (both are righties), tori with inside lapel grip and uke’s sleeve controlled. Moving sideways to tori left (sleeve side), tori throws uke with De Ashi Barai. Next, tori attacksDe Ashi Barai, uke avoids (oh, yeah, defense is fusegi), tori continues with right hand Ippon Seoi Nage.
Finally, I had them do Harai (not hairi) Goshi, as both of them, particularly the woman, have that as a tokui waza. After a bit of adjustment they were doing it quite well using the different grips etc used above.
So, it took me a lot longer to write this out using terminology than it did to instruct them, and still, how many guys outside of the ones who practice Judo (a lot, I’m thinking judoka_uk, Coach Josh, Res Judicata, etc.) will be able to follow it?
I did not use a lot of the terminology either, in person. The various hairi kata they practiced do not have names in Judo. They are ephemeral positions that are just shown and then drilled. If one trains long enough, and seriously enough, you learn them.
That’s the Judo way. Not saying it’s better than any other art, maybe just different.
Ben
[quote=judoka_uk;2464165]You missed this post:
I’ve had a little think about what we used to call the positions before we adopted BJJ terminology. Half guard was ‘with one leg trapped’, Guard was ‘in between the legs’ and Turtle was ‘uke on all fours’. Whenever we did newaza randori we would be told to either start in one of those positions or from the knees.
I was at a session once where Japanese female third dan taught standing guard sweeps, they were introduced as something like ‘methods of defence when on your back against a standing opponent’.
Don’t really know where I’m going with this but just kind of running through how Judo has dealt with not having names for transitional positions.[/quote]
Dammit, how did I miss that? maybe he was writing it while I was posting my last pontification?
Apologies to Josh and his lovely wife (yes, I’ve seen her, but she wasn’t his wife back then).
Ben
[quote=judoka_uk;2464165]You missed this post:
I’ve had a little think about what we used to call the positions before we adopted BJJ terminology. Half guard was ‘with one leg trapped’, Guard was ‘in between the legs’ and Turtle was ‘uke on all fours’. Whenever we did newaza randori we would be told to either start in one of those positions or from the knees.
I was at a session once where Japanese female third dan taught standing guard sweeps, they were introduced as something like ‘methods of defence when on your back against a standing opponent’.
Don’t really know where I’m going with this but just kind of running through how Judo has dealt with not having names for transitional positions.[/quote]
I use “turtle”, “legs around bottom”, “one leg trapped” stuff like that, and show the position. Edi* half guard was was “niju garami”. Lots of methods to free your leg if on top, only a 2-3 of what in BJJ would be “half guard sweeps”, maybe one was from “deep half guard”.
The instruction from higher level japanese sensei I have gotten was pretty much devoid of positional terminology. Show the position, show the way to attack it, escape it, or drills related to it. I do not think that a name for each variation or method would have made it any easier to remember. More practice would have made it easier, though. When a teacher gets 5-6 deep into “if uke does this, then do this” for a single attack, remembering gets pretty tough anyway, names or no names.
Ben
[quote=BKR;2464170]
The instruction from higher level japanese sensei I have gotten was pretty much devoid of positional terminology. Show the position, show the way to attack it, escape it, or drills related to it. I do not think that a name for each variation or method would have made it any easier to remember. More practice would have made it easier, though. When a teacher gets 5-6 deep into “if uke does this, then do this” for a single attack, remembering gets pretty tough anyway, names or no names.
Ben[/quote]
Yeh when Hosaka sensei who was Kodokan 8th dan used to teach half guard it was just ‘this is how you get your leg free method 1, method 2 etc…’
It irritates me when people go off on 5 or so variations because it is really hard to remember everything especially for beginners who end up starting with technique one then doing random bits from the other 4. I work by the adage ‘show them everything, teach them nothing’ and try to limit myself to 2 variations at anyone time.
[quote=judoka_uk;2464172]Yeh when Hosaka sensei who was Kodokan 8th dan used to teach half guard it was just ‘this is how you get your leg free method 1, method 2 etc…’
It irritates me when people go off on 5 or so variations because it is really hard to remember everything especially for beginners who end up starting with technique one then doing random bits from the other 4. I work by the adage ‘show them everything, teach them nothing’ and try to limit myself to 2 variations at anyone time.[/quote]
In my particular case, the visiting instructor was at the dojo for one and a half years, so we did drill the sequences a lot (I was doing Judo 4 days a week in advanced judo class). He was very organized in presentation, so it was not so bad.But still, names would not have done any good. I do not know how he remembered it all. He was from Tokai University, so had direct instruction from Sato, Yamashita, et al…
Ben