I HATE YOU!
runs to his room
slams door!!!
[quote=Lebell;2461785]for me its not about the names, its the mentality of the old guard that is transforming judo into a shitty style.
what i read from that thread is the similar arrogant attitude of people who know it all and cant possibly learn anything new and want to keep(or change depending how you look at it) judo into what judo should be in their opinion.
they have a very closedmindedness about them.[/quote]
More terminology or naming things does not equal transformation/evolution/advancement/improvement/learning
something new.
You (and many others posting here) have literally, no concept of the experience level of the people like Sodo or Cichorei Kano, etc that post on Judo Forum. Yet you want to argue with truevexperts at Judo why or why they should adopt a method of terminology of naming things that do not align with Judo principles, history, philosophy. All because YOU think they could learn something from new terminology.
If Helio Gracie were alive and posting here, would you argue with him about BJJ/GJJ? Technical terms? How about Royce or Rickson? You’d just be making an ass of yourself. How about Yamashita,Inoue, Adams, Pedro, Iaskevitch, Kashiwazaki, or for dog’s sake Okano?
No way.
I’ve been doing Judo for 30 years. I like ne waza. I spent/spend at least 50% of my time training ne waza,overall. I can and still do learn new things in Judo. Despite all my “vast” experience (lol), I can still be blown away by more experienced judoka in terms of concepts and technique. It has NOTHING to do with “terminology”.
I went to a few BJJ classes this summer. I learned new things, was reminded of several I had forgotten, and yet, somehow, it was not due to the terminology. In fact, the BJJ teacher,when I started asking about BJJ terms, kind of shrugged and didn’t find them very important, so I let it go. I had thought from my exposure to BJJ on the Internet is was going to very important. Apparently not, at least in that case.
I hypothesize that a lot of this fascination with vocabulary (other than a ruse to troll Judo Forum) stems from inexperienced grapplers who are honestly struggling to learn more, and are taking a very western/intellectual approach, and scour the Internet (I used books when I was starting out!) for techniques and approaches to help them succeed.
The reality is, that learning Judo/BJJ/etc. is primarily experiential/intuitive, and occurs over a period of months/years/decades through PROPER training/repitition/competition. Every art has it’s own terminology, of course. But we can all learn from each other without having to make up names for everything. In fact, it’s a hindrance to focus too much on terminology in my own personal experience.
Your mileage may vary.
Ben
Speaking for Judo, no. Terminology does not equal evolution. On the mat, you do not need exensive terminology. Being good at Judo, at least, does not require on to memorize an encyclopedia of minute variations on of positions or transitions, or techniques.
The knowledge has to be absorbed into your nervous system and become a way of being. Maybe kinestetic learning is a better way to put it.
Ben
[quote=BKR;2462145]More terminology or naming things does not equal transformation/evolution/advancement/improvement/learning
something new. [/quote]
I clearly posted that for me it wasnt so much about terminology, but i guess you want to keep ramming your own points through, go ahead.
You (and many others posting here) have literally, no concept of the experience level of the people like Sodo or Cichorei Kano, etc that post on Judo Forum. Yet you want to argue with truevexperts at Judo why or why they should adopt a method of terminology of naming things that do not align with Judo principles, history, philosophy.
I don’t think you should make any judgement on my judoskills, then again i have NO idea what im talking about, right?
This is the exact attitude what i meant earlier in my posts.
All because YOU think they could learn something from new terminology.
No, they wouldnt so much learn a new thing, i meant they could open their eyes to see new sides to implementing judo instead of covering their ears and screaming: im a 6th dan lalala i know everything there is to know.
Judo is in a shitty position, with all the new crappy rules.
let’s do something about it, instead of pulling rank the whole goddamn time.
If Helio Gracie were alive and posting here, would you argue with him about BJJ/GJJ? Technical terms? How about Royce or Rickson? You’d just be making an ass of yourself. How about Yamashita,Inoue, Adams, Pedro, Iaskevitch, Kashiwazaki, or for dog’s sake Okano?
What?
You’re the Helio Gracie of judo now?
Who the hell are you anyway?
I’ve had these talks with 4th and up to 6th dan dutch judokas and they agreed with my point of view.
This isnt about disrespect to the older dudes, but i have some criticism towards their attitude. (some of the older dudes, not all ofcourse)
I’ve been doing Judo for 30 years. I like ne waza. I spent/spend at least 50% of my time training ne waza,overall. I can and still do learn new things in Judo. Despite all my “vast” experience (lol), I can still be blown away by more experienced judoka in terms of concepts and technique. It has NOTHING to do with “terminology”.
I totally agree with you on this!
And we continue to this part:
I went to a few BJJ classes this summer. I learned new things, was reminded of several I had forgotten, and yet, somehow, it was not due to the terminology.
^^^^This is what im aiming at!
Thats a good thing, it shouldnt be about ‘har har bjj rules supreme on groundwork’, or ‘der der we have that stuff in judo too’, both styles neglected certain aspects, why not look what we can take and use/remember/learn whether soeone is a judoka or a bjj player, we’re all grown pple n pyama’s ffs. :-p
I hypothesize that a lot of this fascination with vocabulary (other than a ruse to troll Judo Forum) stems from inexperienced grapplers who are honestly struggling to learn more, and are taking a very western/intellectual approach, and scour the Internet (I used books when I was starting out!) for techniques and approaches to help them succeed.
I think you might be on to something there, im horrible with names, i mix up sidemount with side control and whatnot, judo terminology in japanese is even worse.
especially in bjj classes you get guys showing up who are talking bout twisters and basebalbatchokes and whatever.
knowing the name doesnt mean you can perform the technique.
The reality is, that learning Judo/BJJ/etc. is primarily experiential/intuitive, and occurs over a period of months/years/decades through PROPER training/repitition/competition. Every art has it’s own terminology, of course. But we can all learn from each other without having to make up names for everything. In fact, it’s a hindrance to focus too much on terminology in my own personal experience.
Your mileage may vary.
Ben
Again, i completely agree with this part.
I think you misread my point,in short: the terminology crap is actually pointing out the attitude problems with (some) practisioners of BOTH sides.
That’s fine by me. While I am more strict with moderation in the advanced forum, I have no objection to a thread being started in either grappling forum provided that people stay on topic.
This is always an excellent option.
[quote=jnp;2462303]That’s fine by me. While I am more strict with moderation in the advanced forum, I have no objection to a thread being started in either grappling forum provided that people stay on topic.
This is always an excellent option.[/quote]
Great idea, JNP. I’ve said all I have to say.
Ben
[quote=Lebell;2462159]I clearly posted that for me it wasnt so much about terminology, but i guess you want to keep ramming your own points through, go ahead.
I don’t think you should make any judgement on my judoskills, then again i have NO idea what im talking about, right?
This is the exact attitude what i meant earlier in my posts.
No, they wouldnt so much learn a new thing, i meant they could open their eyes to see new sides to implementing judo instead of covering their ears and screaming: im a 6th dan lalala i know everything there is to know.
Judo is in a shitty position, with all the new crappy rules.
let’s do something about it, instead of pulling rank the whole goddamn time.
What?
You’re the Helio Gracie of judo now?
Who the hell are you anyway?
I’ve had these talks with 4th and up to 6th dan dutch judokas and they agreed with my point of view.
This isnt about disrespect to the older dudes, but i have some criticism towards their attitude. (some of the older dudes, not all ofcourse)
I totally agree with you on this!
And we continue to this part:
^^^^This is what im aiming at!
Thats a good thing, it shouldnt be about ‘har har bjj rules supreme on groundwork’, or ‘der der we have that stuff in judo too’, both styles neglected certain aspects, why not look what we can take and use/remember/learn whether soeone is a judoka or a bjj player, we’re all grown pple n pyama’s ffs. :-p
I think you might be on to something there, im horrible with names, i mix up sidemount with side control and whatnot, judo terminology in japanese is even worse.
especially in bjj classes you get guys showing up who are talking bout twisters and basebalbatchokes and whatever.
knowing the name doesnt mean you can perform the technique.
Again, i completely agree with this part.
I think you misread my point,in short: the terminology crap is actually pointing out the attitude problems with (some) practisioners of BOTH sides.[/quote]
I’m glad we basically agree. I apologize if I misunderstood aspects of your post.
No, I do not consider myself to be the Helio Gracie of Judo. More like one of the Three Stooges, and not anywhere near as entertaining, either. But you probably got that already.
You like to make cute off topic remarks, I like to ram home my points over and over again. Can we call it even and move on?
Ben
[quote=BKR;2462356]I’m glad we basically agree. I apologize if I misunderstood aspects of your post.
No, I do not consider myself to be the Helio Gracie of Judo. More like one of the Three Stooges, and not anywhere near as entertaining, either. But you probably got that already.
You like to make cute off topic remarks, I like to ram home my points over and over again. Can we call it even and move on?
Ben[/quote]
Ofcourse, i think we’r pretty much on the same page, just misunderstood some points.
no need to apologise.
Its interesting that in the ‘land of the barbarians’ a.k.a bullshido that there is a general consensus in favour of the viewpoint advocated by CK/ SODO.
I think that whole thread was a bit of a troll vs troll scenario, I’ve come to the positon that SODO actively enjoys trolling anything he thinks he can attack as non-traditional and I don’t think that’s helpful.
Then again I should probably let sleeping dogs lie.
[quote=judoka_uk;2462724]Then again I should probably let sleeping dogs lie.[/quote]Probably best.
There’s a very good reason I’ve never posted there before, although I registered an account years ago.
[quote=Lu Tze;2462730]Probably best.
There’s a very good reason I’ve never posted there before, although I registered an account years ago.[/quote]
I’ve been posting less and less recently for quite a few reasons.
[quote=judoka_uk;2462724]Its interesting that in the ‘land of the barbarians’ a.k.a bullshido that there is a general consensus in favour of the viewpoint advocated by CK/ SODO.[/quote]I’ve really got no idea what SODO’s viewpoint is. Unless we’ve agreed that anyone asking about butterfly guard on the internet is a troll and arsehole who doesn’t want to learn Judo…
I also don’t think we’ve agreed at all that naming positions on the ground or using those names in teaching is horribly counter-productive.
[quote=PointyShinyBurn;2462733]I’ve really got no idea what SODO’s viewpoint is. Unless we’ve agreed that anyone asking about butterfly guard on the internet is a troll and arsehole who doesn’t want to learn Judo…
I also don’t think we’ve agreed at all that naming positions on the ground or using those names in teaching is horribly counter-productive.[/quote]
Yeh I really hesitated to include SODO’s name, because he is just trolling inconsistently.
No, but I think it was agreed that Judo has reasons for not naming specific newaza positons and for better or worse that is the way it is done in Judo. There did at least seem to be a rough consensus of opinion in this thread, do you not agree?
I would like to make the small point to BKR that being Gods Gift to Judo does not necessarily make one Gods Gift to communication. The ability to communicate complex concepts with simple phrases makes learning the intellectual side of things easier. Attaching a series of physical actions to a single word or simple phrase makes it easier to remember that series when you are trying to apply it. Clear communication is important whenever you are teaching something to someone. I see no reason why a Judo instructor would be averse to adopting BJJ terminology where it made sense to improve communication with his students. Just as we use the Judo terminology for most of the throws we use because it’s a very clear way to communicate exactly what we mean.
I honestly can’t see how anyone can object to assigning a simple name to any complex series which has to be communicated on a semi regular basis.
SODO has stated that he has no trouble with people learning Judo using terms from their own languages, like “high-collar grip” or “turnover”. I don’t see how “butterfly guard” is any different.
No one is arguing that these terms be canonized in the halls of the Kodokan, just that they are useful and acceptable for training.
Does the sylabus of judo ever change? If it dosent it soleves the problem of wether you should change terminology. But of course raises issues then in other areas.
[quote=Kintanon;2462739]Clear communication is important whenever you are teaching something to someone. I see no reason why a Judo instructor would be averse to adopting BJJ terminology where it made sense to improve communication with his students. Just as we use the Judo terminology for most of the throws we use because it’s a very clear way to communicate exactly what we mean.
I honestly can’t see how anyone can object to assigning a simple name to any complex series which has to be communicated on a semi regular basis.[/quote]
I think that this is less of a problem when actually in the dojo, because everyone can clearly see everything that you’re doing so there is less need for a name and you can get away with saying things like ‘remember this position we were practicing 3 weeks ago’ and get into the butterfly guard position without giving it a name, just merely describing it as ‘this turnover from the back’ etc… Its not perfect, but it is do-able.
However, when it comes to talking about it over the internet this method becomes largely untenable as I tried to not so subtle suggets in the JF thread, by posting paragraph length descriptions of the butterfly guard position everytime I refered to it. Just to indicate how difficult it is to just describe something in words online especially when the reason you’re asking a question in the first place is because your understanding is incomplete.
I use the terms butterfly guard and sweep, because I teach fellow uni students and most of them watch MMA or have seen some BJJ and so the terms are not unfamiliar to them and are helpful. I’ll put money on it that the Japanese have widespread colloquial names for positions like the butterfly guard.
Judo doesn’t have a syllabus as such, however, during the first few decades of the development of Judo the number of techniques and classification of techniques included in the gokyo vaired a fair bit. Also the Kodokan’s official classification of newaza names has varied somewhat the hold now commonly called ‘Mune gatame’ is classified as just ‘Yoko shiho gatame’ according to the Kodokan.
[quote=BKR;2462145]
You (and many others posting here) have literally, no concept of the experience level of the people like Sodo or Cichorei Kano, etc that post on Judo Forum. Yet you want to argue with truevexperts at Judo why or why they should adopt a method of terminology of naming things that do not align with Judo principles, history, philosophy. All because YOU think they could learn something from new terminology. [/quote]
i don’t think that any degree of skill in judo justifies CK being the sort of douchebag asshole that he is (at least online.)
i believe that zendokan was in the process of exposing CK to be far less of an expert than he claims to be, not only in judo but also in the field of medicine. i for one am very interested in his findings because shutting up CK might make discussions on JF more interesting.
[quote=Ming Loyalist;2462750]i don’t think that any degree of skill in judo justifies CK being the sort of douchebag asshole that he is (at least online.)
i believe that zendokan was in the process of exposing CK to be far less of an expert than he claims to be, not only in judo but also in the field of medicine. i for one am very interested in his findings because shutting up CK might make discussions on JF more interesting.[/quote]
Indeed, it took me a year to research everything. Wait one month tops for the article and then just enjoy the show.
Holy crap my judo club most be doing some things wrong, using the English names for throws, calling the Gaurd, guard and butterfly guard well butterfly guard. No wonder why the huge shock when I saw community center judo.