People keep telling me Wing Chun has effective grappling techniques. Alright, I’ll bite, where are they? I haven’t seen any myself…
LMAO!! Wing Chun grappling techniques? Where do you hear that?!
“I would rather admit I am a lousy student than say I am the best, because once you think you are the best, there is no reason to continue learning.”
I don’t know, it just pops up on various messageboards and discussion groups from time to time. It goes something like this, “WAHT R YUO STUOPID OR SOMETHING WING CHOON HAS GRAPPAL TECHNIKUES!” Then I ask for some and no one tells me where to find instruction. 
I actually got my hopes up the first time.
I know they have standing grappling techniques but thats about it.
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Here’s a list of the WT grappling techs I have learnt:
Sprawl
Lap sao (grabbing and pulling an arm to unbalance/control an opponent)
Wrist lock when you are standing and opponent is on ground (to move/control them)
Arm lock 1 (this is hard to describe. On opponents left arm: grab opponents wrist with your right hand, place blade of forearm on their upper arm/tricep, pull their wrist towards you in a twisting motion whilst pushing down on their tricep with your left forearm. This puts them face down on the floor.)
Arm lock 2 (grab their right wrist with your right hand, place your left palm on the outside of their elbow and push up)
Guard position on ground (instead of wrapping your legs around your opponent like BJJ, keep your feet on the floor with your opponent between them, using your knees to control them)
Guard on the ground when opponent is standing (both legs bent, one higher than the other, lower one protects groin and used for turning, hands always up in guard. We’re taught how to get around (pass?) this guard as well to prevent people from passing it)
Escape from mount (as opponent attempts to strike, find one of their arms, grab it and pull it close to you and lift your hips off of the ground bridging them off)
Falling (rear leg folds up underneath you, sit down and roll backwards on your back (keep chin on chest!) always keeping your hands up)
I’m sure there’s more I just haven’t learnt them yet. Besides these when on the ground I’ve been taught to remain relaxed (so I don’t tense up and get bridged off) and keep my weight on my opponent when I’m on top. The grappling and ground fighting I’ve learnt fits with WTs stand up fighting principles very well.
What the hell. Have you ever tried those two arm locks against an opponent that is a lot stronger than you and actively resisting? Well I just did. I randomly incorporated them into our sparring and I can hardly budge him–The other techniques work alright, but the sprawl and the bridge I already learned from wrestling.
Wow what a COINCIDENCE that Wing Chun grappling movements closely resemble Judo/BJJ!
Wing Chun has no grappling.
Kung Fu students will tell you that Kung Fu incorporates everything from nunchakus to firearms.
Kiaiii!!!
WAO what style of kung fu use firearms? I’ll take that to the UFC
Stold, they sound like some joint manipulations I’ve done and you’re right they won’t work by force on someone a lot stronger. They’ll usually only work (and should only be taught with this in mind) in conjunction with an opponents previous movements and your center. They’re usually helped if you throw in a wrist lock as well, but then you get into the question of how complicated you want to get.
Oh my god! I don’t wanna go to THE STREET mommy! All the mean crazy psycho ninjas pick on me and take my lunch money.
WC has also some nasty headlocks. but as far as i know these “locks” are not primarily used to apply pressure and lock someone up but should be executed fast and powerful in order to break someone’s arm or neck.
Trying to apply those two armlocks as a first attack is nuts. They are more likely to work when you have slipped past an opponents punch and are on the outside gate. I personally don’t like standing joint locks anyway but it is what I have been shown and we learn how to counter them also. The first one is used by police forces in the UK (I know two people who are training to be police).
If WT grappling techniques resemble judo/BJJ it is coincidental. The reason why they are similar is that they work. In some respects I think WT and BJJ are similar. For example, in BJJ you are taught to be relaxed so that you feel what your opponent is doing and react accordingly. This is also taught in WT chi sao (albeit standing) also. WT ground fighting is obviously not as good as BJJ because in WT you train a lot less on the ground. Also WT ground work tends to be taught at higher grades. I am lucky that I have an instructor that shows us the higher grade stuff. WT isn’t just Wing Chun with judo/BJJ techniques tacked on. As I said before the ground work/grappling follows the same principles as the standing techs. It all fits together well. Even if techs from other disciplines were added then is that such a bad thing? Adding what is useful? Cross training?
If there was a BJJ school close to me then I’d be there like a shot but there aren’t many here in the UK.
I just get pissed that WT takes from modern grappling/BJJ and gives it NO credit. Instead we hear bullshit stories about how Kung Fu has always included grappling within its system. Everyone knows this is bullshit.
then how come every wing chun sifu is a certified grappler?
Trapping is not Grappling.
Grabbing and yanking (Lop Sau) is as much a grappling skill as two pre-schoolers pushing each other over who gets the last cookie.
That said, I’ve seen some footage of WC guys trapping their way to a standing Rear Naked Choke, but that’s the extent of my knowledge that WC has any grappling.
I guess it boils down to semantics: if WC adopts techniques from BJJ, is it still WC? Is it even still Kung Fu?
Adapting your martial art in the face of more effective techniques is a very good thing. But it’s at the very least dishonest to pretend that they were a part of the art’s skillset all along.
I still don’t comprehend the logic that says something 4000 years old is more effective than something based on modern knowledge. You know what a 4000 year old computer looked like?
A stick and some dirt.
I’ll give a ton of credit to any WC school that has identified that it needs at the very least some takedown defense incorporated into the art, and has trained accordingly. Boztepe, for all of his controversy and spin, has done this, and I’m sure others will follow.
“You know what a 4000 year old computer looked like? A stick and some dirt.”
No wonder I can’t figure out how to post a pic! I knew I shouldn’t have gone with a traditional computer.
The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to “chi” is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.
WC is too controversial. Some practitioners say that it is a very advanced fighting system that must follow strict tulres to be effective.
Others say it is just a set of principles that can be applied to all areas of combat to make you an effective fighter.
All I know is, the only way Wing Chun can ever be effective is if you are on the offensive. Defensive wing chun practitioners will lose badly. You should always be attemping to flood the holes with as many punches as possible, ala straightblast.
Wing Chun isn’t 4000 years old, its supposed to be 300 but nobody knows for sure. JJJ is at least this old and that spawned Judo which spawned BJJ. Old systems are good as long as they keep developing to suit the current environment. WT is like this because, as Stold2 said, it is a set of principles. Its not just a collection of techniques. If you learn technique after technique when the shit hits the fan you can’t decide which to use.
As BJJ originally came from Japan and Japanese MAs history is interwoven with China’s is it that hard to believe that WT and BJJ have similar principles? Having said that the goals of grappling in WT are different to that of BJJ. In WT the goal is not to submit the opponent on the ground. There are no armbars, leg locks etc in WT. If we had ripped off BJJ we would have these. The goal of WT grappling is to get into a good position as soon as possible, strike, stand up and escape if neccessary. We grapple in order to be able to strike.
Phrost, what you say about lap sao, you can also say about a punch. An untrained person can punch but can they punch as well as a trained striker? My description of lap sao was a bit basic but without footwork, timing and kicking or punching at the same time it isn’t much use.
Stold2 : All I know is, the only way Wing Chun can ever be effective is if you are on the offensive. Defensive wing chun practitioners will lose badly. You should always be attemping to flood the holes with as many punches as possible, ala straightblast
Wing Chun is always going to be defensive, it uses counter attacks as its main attack, sure if you want you can attack…
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I can’t speak for all Wing Chun but WT stresses simultaneous attack and defence. Blocking and then countering in 2 separate moves is not usually done because its too slow, puts you on the defensive and can leave you open if the person is continuously attacking.
To say that grappling is only for strong people is wrong. Royce Gracie defeated many opponents heavier and stronger than himself.
To prove how this works in WT I will go into more detail about a lap sao (sometimes called lop sao). If you pull someones arm away from them and they are weaker than you, you will move and unbalance them. If they are stronger than you, you pull yourself around them (using footwork) and be in an advantageous position. Lap sao is used a lot in the wooden dummy form and so isn’t usually taught to Wing Chun students until they get to a high level. In WT it is one of the first things we learn.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The principles of WT that are used standing are used on the ground as well. Lap sao works on the ground as well as standing (see my previous post about grabbing an arm and pulling it to unbalance someone who has mounted you).