People that have never tripped don’t understand.
Think of it as the deepest possible simulation of another reality. You come down, you come home, but while you’re out, you get to experience not just different visual sensations but also a truly different perspective. You aren’t aping or acting that perspective, your perspective actually changes.
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[/I]Yep.
Thats fair and worth the repeat.
In deference to the fact you’re just taking a rain check on this thread, i’ll keep it brief:-
Dude!! I have used the ‘tree’ example countless times trying to describe the experience of tripping. An exercise in futility, i realise… Still fun to try though!
Excellent!
I was utterly convinced of the importance of trees in the grand scheme of things once, with the aid of mushrooms.
Thats all i can remember now… Just a conviction in there importance.
Osiris: I’m impressed not just by your intrepid safaris into the twilight zone, but also the fact that it has only sharpened your BS Detector. You seem successful at, in the words of a teacher of mine, “balancing Revelation with Reason”. Props.
You’ll dig Spirit Molecule, and some of what his very controlled case studies reveal is fucking far out. I want to also recommend The Way of the Shaman by Michael Harner.
Its about modern, archaic-revival spirituality, but Harner’s thought was influenced both by his studies (respected anthroplogist) and his ayuasca experiences.
Apparently, Alice Walker just got dosed on the ayuasca and it blew her mind and whatnot.
I’ll bet she never looks at The Color Purple the same way again.
Maybe there wasn’t one because there is no over-arching concept to life. Initial exposure to the fractal pattern decompressing, resulted in consciousness according to Terry. The link between the consciousness, shrooms and the third party is the hallucinagens tune your consciousness into the bandwidth occupied by, for example, the Elves and they, rather than being secret controllers, are fellow psychonauts. They just with more advanced technology and experience.
I’m not suggesting that life has one overarching idea behind it. First of all, psychedelics DO present overarching ideas. Basic themes include cycles, oneness, irony, trickery, time travel, etc. Also, we have the idea of alien/god contact. The problem here is that these overarching ideas don’t present a plausible model of reality, nor are they at all on topic for the subject at hand, which presumably would be an introduction.
[quote]What i mean by ‘Technology’ is a system of tools that achieve specific effects. In this context, the specific rituals that a south american shamen would use to ensure a good and worthwhile trip, from ayahuasca brew, would constitute technology.[/
It’s true, our modern technology has yet to bring us alien influence, but what if it’s a case of looking in the wrong place?
That the means of communicating with alien intelligence is biological in nature and all we have to do, to communicate is just percieve them. But to percieve them we have to access non-normal states and that can be incredibly dis-orientating.
Maybe there wasn’t one because there is no over-arching concept to life. Initial exposure to the fractal pattern decompressing, resulted in consciousness according to Terry. The link between the consciousness, shrooms and the third party is the hallucinagens tune your consciousness into the bandwidth occupied by, for example, the Elves and they, rather than being secret controllers, are fellow psychonauts. They just with more advanced technology and experience.
I’m not suggesting that life has one overarching idea behind it. First of all, psychedelics DO present overarching ideas. Basic themes include cycles, oneness, irony, trickery, time travel, etc. Also, we have the idea of alien/god contact. The problem here is that these overarching ideas don’t present a plausible model of reality, nor are they at all on topic for the subject at hand, which presumably would be an introduction. if I were contacting an alien civilization, I’d simply display humans and leave it at that. Mushrooms will have you all over the damn place, moving freely from bullshit terrestrial matters to silly philosophy to the dark side of the moon.
What i mean by ‘Technology’ is a system of tools that achieve specific effects. In this context, the specific rituals that a south american shamen would use to ensure a good and worthwhile trip, from ayahuasca brew, would constitute technology.
Then how would they lack technology using that definition? Now your argument is just falling apart just on technicalities. Not a good sign.
It’s true, our modern technology has yet to bring us alien influence, but what if it’s a case of looking in the wrong place?
That the means of communicating with alien intelligence is biological in nature and all we have to do, to communicate is just percieve them. But to percieve them we have to access non-normal states and that can be incredibly dis-orientating.
Problem is, we have psychedelics here. We also have mushrooms. Why therefore, is there anything unusual about psychedelic mushrooms?
Anyways, McKenna was ALSO responsible for the time wave zero mess. My beef with McKenna isn’t that he was a silly acid head. I’m all for that. Its that he was a silly acid head masquerading as a serious spokesperson for the psychedelic experience as well as a scientist. He made a serious career of what amounts to nothing but his trip reports, which he postulated upon as if they had any basis in objective reality.
Dude!! I have used the ‘tree’ example countless times trying to describe the experience of tripping. An exercise in futility, i realise… Still fun to try though!
Excellent!
Sartre, I believe. Studied the tree as his first phenomenological experience.
I was utterly convinced of the importance of trees in the grand scheme of things once, with the aid of mushrooms.
Dude, this shit was fucking trippy. I had this crazy conspiracy going on involving trees. Its like, the trees and other plants needed carbon dioxide to breathe. But then animals needed oxygen. So the trees put out oxygen while the animals put out carbon dioxide. That shit went round and round in this never ending cycle. And so then I’d look closer and see that the animals fed off the trees and shit, and then when plants and animals died, they put nutrients into the soil which the living plants consumed. Then my thoughts got really crazy and it was like there was some sort of relationship between all living things that could be expressed in circles or spirals. Cycles is a better word. Then I expanded my scale and realized that the sun was powering all of this. Then i realized that the solar system was one huge cycle and this is too fucking methodical to be an accident and it never ends and its so glorious. But why does it seem sinister too??? ITS GOD!!!
Was that it?
In deference to the fact you’re just taking a rain check on this thread, i’ll keep it brief:-
No rain check really. Just had to work. I would’ve replied when I got off anyways.
Another common theme, which Osiris is hinting at, is interconnection, evolution, and what Tim Leary (groan - I know, I know) called Intelligence Increase - the postive upwards evolutionary thrust of coherence, intelligence, and conciousness.
Either Watson (or Crick) had their intitial vision of the DNA molecule while experimenting with LSD. And the consensus out here in Silicon Valley is that the infotech revolution would never have been impossible without pyschedelics.
Apologies for late reply, anyway:-
Thats fair!
You’re right, these substances don’t present us with a plausible model. I think that they’re useful as a method of deconstructing present models of reality and then allowing examination and critique of them from new and facinatingly, different perspectives.
Sometimes you get something useful from them, sometimes you don’t. I think this is where myself and Mckenna disagree. He has stated that he would never perform practice’s such meditation or shamanistic, visionary experience without psychadelics. I would argue that there is some merit in doing these practices by themselves, either as a ‘warm-up’ or even using the Psychedelic as a ‘road map’. i.e. Once you’ve experienced the altered state with the drug, then you experiment without it.
You do this, because as you said, mushrooms leave you all over the place and not in the best frame of mind to be gleaning infomation from the experience. It’s possible, obviously, but not easy.
Hmmmm, I think i wasn’t clear here! Communicating these idea’s in this medium is trickier than it first appears. No excuses eh? :icon_roll
A Shamans technology, in this context, is geared to grasping the experience in a highly intuitive, experiential manner. This allows for ease of use of the substance and the development of ritual to explore the experience. But lacking the scientific model, they have few methods of storing the infomation. One method is the oral format, which is problematic for reasons i don’t need to outline. Transmitting the infomation then becomes a problem, as it is only geared to reaching a small minority. They also have no method of testing other than trial and error, so advances in that Tech are slow and few and far between.
Ah, ya got me! I don’t know and I don’t what Mckennas response to this is, assuming he or Wilson has a response to this point.
The mushrooms we term psychedelic are the one’s that react to our physiology? Maybe the poisonous ones are the psychedelic one 's to other species/aliens?? A stretch! I know…
Who would you rate as a spokes person for the psychodelic experience?
Edit- Terrifying and awesome all at the same time!?!
Was that it?
Well, other than I want what you’ve been drinking/smoking I think so. I woulda prefered to have this chat in person, while bombed…
Say, ever read ‘TIHKAL’, written by Alexander Shulgin and Ann Shulgin?
If not, check it out!!
:eusa_clap
My experience with hallucinigens is very rusty. Haven’t touched them since I was about 21 years old. I’ve only done Mushrooms and LSD, never Peyote or this Ayahuasca stuff. On Acid or mushrooms, I always had the most uplifting experiences by getting back to nature. A walk in the woods or something like that. Best not to have too many strangers around, just close friends and trees and animals.
Who would you rate as a spokes person for the psychodelic experience?
No one.
No one?
Rick Strassman?
Robert Anton Wilson?
Joe Rogan? (Yeah, I know… But what the hell!!)
Peter Carroll?
Ken Kesey?
William Burroughs?
No one. These overarching ideas I mentioned earlier aren’t just random quirks of the drugs, but reflections of the human condition, the details being reflections of one’s personal condition. I already know what it means to be human. I may or may not know what it is to be me, but you surely don’t know. So really, what is the psychedelic spokesman speaking about?
I agree with your initial statement, these ideas do reflect on the human condition. I think that the notion of ‘human condition’ can also explored and questioned, as can the reflections on one’s personal condition and the idea of ‘personal condition’. Personally, I find all this fascinating, that these concepts that can be explored, dissected and submitted to sceptical inquiry and played with!! So, you would have to say that i’m still exploring the notion of ‘human’ at the moment, its a fascinating subject!!!
‘Know Thyself’ is a valuable life lesson, if you’ve learned that, then I salute you! Because I’m still not sure… Frankly, I’m not really sure what ‘Me’ means half the time… Assuming it has any ‘meaning’… whatever that is…
[LEFT] I wouldn’t say that there is ‘one’ psychedlic spokesman but, amoungst the sort of themes they deal with are Consciousness, Reality, Language, Identity, Infomation Theory, the odd smattering of Quantum Physics.
:4robot:
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Wouldn’t they just be philosophers then?
On a related note, I’m done with ayahuasca. I had a brutal +4 some time ago, and I really don’t want to go any further, but at the same time, no other ayahuasca experience compares. It really changed my life.
Judging by your new av, you heeded the advice that I sent you by PM* and hit the beach . . .
*Psychic Message™
Last year’s pic. The crew is mad slow getting shit from digital cams. There’s a hilarious one of me in a wig that i’d rather have up.
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[/I]Yeah, but they have links with psychedelics and associated research and ideas. It’s not all about the drugs but the drugs are definitely there.
Check out some of there work, I’d recomment Strassmen and Wilson for ease of entry. Rogan if you want to be entertained (some of his Youtube vids are worth a chuckle).
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[/I]+4?? Whats that?
Respect dude!! Every so often, it’s always wise to step away from exploration of the Hyper-Spheres to ground yourself. Read the paper, watch Tv, feed the cat… stuff like that.
-is far too busy fashioning the entire animal kingdom out of plastic dinnerware, has no time to respond to this thread-