Really the point was to not go to the ground…but yes if you go to the ground then BJJ will help very much so. Remember I trained JJ for some time. But first of all lets say you are a woman in a vacant lot or maybe there are more than one attackers…then what? If you are pinned yes do what you got to, but wouldn’t you rather to not get pinned! But most women I know would not rather start off the fight with the big veiny dick in there face, you may want to question the woman you hang around with…they maybe be studying cockshido ( the art of fendind off dick already inserted in the mouth).
Seriously. Seeeeeeriously. This has all been said. Read through the rest of the thread, and then search for the other 50 wing chun threads. This has been discussed from every angle regarding every scenario. The entire history, technique list and application of wing chun is spread thickly across Bullshido.com - we don’t need another layer of it.
Look genius, I am not, nor have I ever, attacked WC. As I specifically mentioned, I have not decided whether I believe WC is valid or not. You have not put forth one valid point that has NOT already been made in the last 2 1/2 YEARS, as everyone else in this thread keeps telling you… it’s been said before. I am attacking your ability to argue. Again, you choose to come back with only speculation and ad hominem attacks, so obviously your logic is flawed. I will put this to you in simpler terms:
- I attack what you SAY. That is an argument.
- You attack ME as a person. That is a logical fallacy, called “ad hominem”. http://datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm
You can’t even be consistent within the same post:
One more thing: If you are “not trying to prove to the forum nor you anything about wing chun”, then why answer the question in the first place? :icon_roll
Just giving insight to a person who asked a question about wing chun from a person who studies this art, among others.
Grade away!
I have a serious question, is there another way to prove the applicabilty of a fighting art other then modern day competitions or video footage?
By this I mean could there be proof in the history of the people who created it?
The only reason I say this is because there are other fighting arts out there like Filipino art forms or Indonesian art forms. Filipinos fought off many countries by hand and stick and are famed for their knife fighting yet they have no roots in MMA competitions. THey have never had a serious contender in the UFC nor do I think their schools really care too (generalization). But does this make them inferior?
Gee, weren’t they dominated by Spaniards like forever?
Tomas
Actually yes, they were and they were not allowed to practice fighting forms nor use edged weapons, but under those circumstances a necessity for a functional fighting skills would seem more likely to develope. While we are fighting one on one in cages and developing MMA skills, there art form most likely developed under more pressing matters.
But do you think that they lack credibility or present and inferior fighting style because they do not hold a major championsship with in a NHB scenario or have numerous video footage?
the spanish had guns, the filipinos had sticks and swords. i believe that thier claim to fame is that they killed ferdinand magellan with sticks and swords.
you cant ignore the FMAs quality of fighting. They do not show face in regular UFC or MMA fights. how ever, ppl like the DOG brothers do have full contact stick fights as competition. those arts remain true to their ideals and have yet to sell out as much as say wing chun has. but then again, look back to the history of all martial arts. they were all at one time effective for survival. i believe that modern society responsible for our beloved BULLSHIDO. most styles have sold out in one way or another, watered down their methods! BJJ would be even more effective if they trained to break the arm rather than for a tap. WC would be more effective if they actually hit people for real. karate TKD, TSD, if they didnt train for point sparring.
i would say that boxing is the only sport i can think of that has not lost its original purpose. but boxers would get hurt to a skilled grappler, or any one that isolated low line kicks etc.
the problem continues, are sport martial arts real martial arts???
and have “real martial arts” fallen victim to excessive watering down, and bullshidoism.
Two words.Dog Brothers.
Not at all.
I’m just disputing the argument that their stickfighting was somehow effective in war. That’s all.
But still, the best FMA I’ve seen is Dog Brothers, and those are IMR mostly westerners aren’t they?
Tomas
I don’t.
See? I would argue with this. Blade arts and archery aside, I don’t see how karate/tkd/kung fu/etc was necessary for survival. Unless you are talking time before blades were invented, like before Bronze age, but I’m afraid the only MA that reaches that far is neanderthal grappling (which I imagine would look very much like todays MMA).
Ever heard of “tap or snap”? Tap means the arm is 1/2 inch away from being broken. By taping you are admitting that if you didn’t tap your arm would be broken. Taping is the greatest invention in martial arts.
Tomas
I started a new thread with this question because I don’t want this to be plagued with wing chun nay sayers (this is not abot WC), it is a question that I was interested in when reading through many of the other threads on bullshido of people defending the system that they train.
The point is to run the fuck away, and not dick around with playing what amounts to arm fencing with your attacker.
but yes if you go to the ground then BJJ will help very much so. Remember I trained JJ for some time.
I used to be an expensive male prostitute under the name “Siguerlo”, which is about as relevant to BJJ as your JJ experience.
But first of all lets say you are a woman in a vacant lot or maybe there are more than one attackers…then what? If you are pinned yes do what you got to, but wouldn’t you rather to not get pinned! .
…Yes. You’re right. BJJ consists mainly of grabbing onto your opponent’s lapels and doing a baseball slide until you end up underneath side control.
Let me ask you something, because i’m genuinely curious: You are aware that “pinned” and “not pinned” do not even begin to address the totality of positioning on the ground, right?
Also, what exactly is a “finger to the back of the neck”? Serious, I can’t think of any martial arts technique that fits that description…I can’t even make a lame sexual anology because…well, it’s just so outlandish.
From the original post I have yet to see WCKF offer anything outstanding, some of it looks ok but I have never meet a WCKF person who has made me a believer, a few handy principals but that is it from my view.
I’ve recently conducted a survey of Wing Chun styles as far as is possible to do from whats available on the net. I haven’t seen much thats impressive at all. Most of the time Wing Chun people talk about things like centre-line theory but don’t practice its application in fighting. Possibly the most obvious failure of the system are those Sifus out there that teach the legs spread-triangle stance… where the fighter is standing with legs splayed open, knees straight, and feet pointing straight forward. Niether leg is forward, as most styles of fighting from kickboxing to fencing would suggest is a good idea. They then like to lean back for some reason. These things are justified on the basis of some very dodgy ideas concerning close-range fighting.
Of course there is a side-on stance in Wing Chun (from the Chum Kil form) but very few Wing Chun people focus on this. Rather they focus on chi-sau and drills from chi sau. This is done staticly, without movement, except for perhaps a kick in some of the most showy drills.
Now I’m sure most of you are aware that a good counter against most hand-flashy stuff is to keep your ‘dukes up’. Against most of the stuff I’ve seen the WC techniques can be countered simply by keeping your hands up and in front. In fact a very good counter to someone who decides to do ‘rolling punches’ at you is simply to punch hard and fast yourself. Another is just to block along the line of the rolling punches.
Having said that I’m not paying out Wing Chun at all. Very few arts can beat a good ‘dukes-up’ with punching defence.
My advice concerning Wing Chun (and most MA) is:
- you should try and be involved in sparring as much as possible. This might require you to improve your cardio-vascular health. Take up running or something lighter but try and make it so you can last through a good sparring session.
- sparring shouldn’t be point based… rather get a few people you trust and try and have an anything goes but dont injure philosophy. It should be like a controlled brawl but fight using Wing Chun! If you can do this you’ll at least have a good benchmark for figuring out what works for you (at this stage in training) and what might work in the future. Bear in mind you might get blood-noses, fat lips, black eyes, hyper extended limbs, bruises on your arms, guts and legs and so on a lot. But this is unfortunately the only way to learn to fight, and it will knock any flinch reflex you have out of you.
- Do weight-training for strength. This is different than mass-training (which is actually less time consuming and a little easier). The benefits are enormous and it will improve everything from punching power to coordination.
- Wing Chun is close range fighting… remember that when training and sparring. I consider it to be close to a form of upright-wrestling and boxing. Unfortunately most styles focus on flashy-rapid arm-strikes. If your club focuses mainly on drills where someone does X and then you do A-to-Z… and this is all the training you do, don’t be upset when someone with a more focused fighting background takes you to the cleaners.
I was just interested in some of the comments made.Someone says that wing chun guys dont hit each other?I heard a rumour that in lot of other country’s (i live in south africa) that because of laws and fear of being sued there are very few full on contact MA left.I didnt think it was true because well there are lots of stuff on the net that proves otherwise.Stuff like ufc and other full contact fighing.But my point is here in my school we fight no gloves or pads just no strikes to the face or groin allowed at full strength.The rest is game.Senior students also fight with open handed gloves as in ufc en then anything is game.The other comment was the stance.The static triangle stance we do train a lot in,but only beginners mostly or when learning new techniques.We certainly dont fight out of it.For that we mostly use the arrow stepping stance and even though we do a lot of “static” chi-sao we also do full sparring a lot.We also train in JJ for ground fighting.Except for the ground fighting i assumed full contact fighting is wat most schools use,especially non sport schools.That is how it is with most schools over here.I used to think it was like that everywhere.Is this true?
Your school may be an exception from the mainstream WC schools where:
1.) you actually spar
2.) you actually incorporate some other art to make up for a lack of groundfighting instead of having a sifu that, after watching the popularity of ufc type events, goes back to the forms and finds some move that he can BS into antigrapple and play off as if they always knew it was there.
You serious?Most schools here train like I do.So there are actually a lot of kwoons that dont use full sparring?That takes away like 50% efficiency out of training.
Not to be too pedantic but I read at the escrima digest http://www.martialartsresource.com/filipino/filframe.htm
that a historical researcher uncovered the ship’s log from Magellan’s ship where a senior officer recounts the death of Magellan.
In the account Filipinos of Lapu Lapu’s island used fire hardened spears or darts to nail him from long range before he was taken out by spear troops (or fire hardened, pointed sticks) in a melee.
Although its true the popular account is there was a battle between Lapu Lapu and Magellan where Lapu Lapu used early Arnis and wielded a way-bladed krys or a kampilan to defeat Magellan, who defended himself with spanish steel, from memory a saber, and the style of spanish fencing.
Just thought I’d mention it… I suppose its possible that the ship’s officer’s account doesn’t completely discount the possibility that Lapu Lapu was in the melee and took out Magellan (who was defended by Conquistadores) in a bladed duel amongst the carnage. But it does seem to cast doubt on the myth.
You realise that Spain had control of the Philipines for a very long time right?