Too deadly for competition...the Last Samurai?

http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/108746-9447-047.html

‘Last Samurai’? Don’t bet on it

Barnby Kirshner, a first-degree black belt, practices his samurai martial-arts maneuvers. – Sherri Barber / Gannett News Service

By Kelli Lackett
The (Fort Collins) Coloradoan
January 6, 2004

Step into the Akumu-ryu Bujutsu Remmei training center, or “dojo,” and you get the sense that you are stepping back in history.

The students, dressed in black, fight each other with weapons that range from the somewhat outdated (knives) to the downright archaic (bamboo swords). Students generally use the bamboo swords to safely practice swordsmanship. But just ask the advanced students, and they’ll show you their exquisite live-blade swords.

If there is something anachronistic about this place in Fort Collins, Colo., it is by design. The dojo, with a name that translates as “Nightmare Art Warrior Tradition,” is a training center for samurai warrior arts. Samurais were a warrior class in power in Japan from approximately 1185 to 1868.

Samurais were trained in anywhere from 18 to 34 disciplines including “kenjutsu” (swordsmanship) “jujutsu” (grappling with a minimum use of weapons), “ninjutsu” (camouflage and deception), “tantojutsu” (knife-fighting), “wajutsu” (the art of harmony) and “bojutsu” (staff art). Collectively these warrior arts are known as “bujutsu.”

The disciplines rely on similar principles, says Randall Brown, “soke” or headmaster of the center, which is recognized by masters in Japan and Okinawa.

“Empty-handed techniques are basically the same as those with weapons,” Brown, 48, says. “In the bujutsu system, you learn a whole system of body movement and body knowledge.”

“Pure physical fighting has not changed much over the years,” adds John Hertlein, 39, who is second in the hierarchy succession to Brown and does much of the teaching of lower-level students. “The artistic expression has changed. (The arts) all have the same roots, just different flowers. You have to understand the roots, and that’s what we do here.”

The integrated nature of bujutsu is a selling point for many of the students at Akumu-kai, the short name for the dojo.

Brown, who had participated in a number of martial arts over the years – including tae kwon do, kenpo, and hwa rang do – began samurai training when he traveled to Japan to study ninjutsu, the study of camouflage and deception.

“That tied me into the samurai arts. I realized they were 10 times the warriors that the ninja was. Ninjutsu was just a small part of what they do,” Brown says. “I wanted a system I knew would work. . . . People lived and died creating this system.”

One key difference between bujutsu and more modern martial arts is that students of bujutsu generally do not compete.

“It’s a combination of traditional and practical warrior arts as opposed to sport. Instead of being about winning, it’s about surviving,” says Robin Scoville, 35, a second-degree black belt at the dojo. “They’ve passed down the art of survival. It wouldn’t be here if they didn’t survive.”

When he started training 28 years ago, Brown felt as if modern martial arts had softened through the emphasis on sporting.

“They’ve lost the point of why people train,” Brown says. “The black belt has lost its meaning.”

Bujutsu can be scary, Brown says, because it is a martial-arts system Westerners are not used to seeing.

But the skills are taught slowly in a systematic manner, he says.

Bujutsu and the samurai code of honor are featured in the film “The Last Samurai,” starring Tom Cruise.

When the word sport is incorporated to the word combat it ususally means that there are rules set. Real world fights in the streets have no such limitations. Most street fights end in less than a 20 seconds. So for the students to compete in sport really pointless. As one that competed in combat sport and also worked as a bouncer and been to many fights. I can honestly say that there is not one technique that I used in the ring that I ever used in a real fight. I find that the way we train in The Kai is effective for real world combat. Oh and the Dog Brothers may call theirs a sport but we really know that it truly isn’t one by all sense of the word. If you have any doubts about the Akumu system check it out… fortcollinsmma.com

You’ve never punched someone in the face on the street? Or you’ve never punched someone in the face in the ring?

If either is true, I pity you greatly and wonder just how the hell you managed to survive all these years as a bouncer.

3 year old thread? Really Lads?

All dojos have rules so STFU? You CANNOT train self defense with out rules.
Fallacy #1 destroyed.

Most street fights end in less than a 20 seconds.

There are hundreds of videos on the net that disprove this assertion.

Fallacy #2 destroyed.

So for the students to compete in sport really pointless. As one that competed in combat sport and also worked as a bouncer and been to many fights. I can honestly say that there is not one technique that I used in the ring that I ever used in a real fight.
Verification please. We don’t like unsubstantiated people here. By the way I’ve seen people knocked out by right hooks, uppercuts, etc. All used in the ring all used on the street.

Fallacy #3 blown out of the water.

I find that the way we train in The Kai is effective for real world combat. Oh and the Dog Brothers may call theirs a sport but we really know that it truly isn’t one by all sense of the word. If you have any doubts about the Akumu system check it out… fortcollinsmma.com
Yes, we all know about dog brothers (very respected) and there are limited rules in their gatherings otherwise, people would end up dead.

Shit, I just realized that. Oh well, I didn’t bump it. :5yeah:

Why is everyone under the assumption that if you’re trained to fight under a rule set you will always fight under a rule set?

Because sports don’t teach you how to fight. The deadly, no rules, one step, compliant enemy, look ma no blood rules all.

Well, at least they got something right.

As far as the kendoka vs traditional sword stylist fight, I’d definitely expect the kendoka to win. I started kendo after having 2-3 years of experience in Shinkendo and Toyama Ryu, and it was like starting over. I quickly realized that when I wasn’t doing a rehearsed kata, I had no idea what to do vs a real opponent.

God, I just can’t resist:

As It Is Fake already explained, there are rules no matter how you train. Do you know of any schools that do full contact, no rules sparring? No. You don’t. Your only recourse is to demonstrate that full contact sparring with rules is worse or less realistic than light-contact compliant drills and scenario-based training.

This is ridiculous for multiple reasons, the best being that on the str33t your opponent will be trying to beat you, not playing a part in a drill. In sparring, you’re already approximating that attitude: your opponent is trying to win in a full contact sparring match. Additionally, even if scenario-based drills work (and there is basically ZERO evidence that they do), they are necessarily limited; you cannot envision or practice for every scenario. A better strategy is to develop the correct attributes of a fighter: athletic capacity, timing, instincts, power, speed, adaptability, etc, which are important in every situation. These are all developed better by full-contact sparring and sportfighting than by compliant drills.

Worse still for the light contact/compliance crowd, without full contact sparring or competitive matches, you cannot know whether or not the techniques you intend to use will actually work, or whether or not you can really apply them. Without training the right way, you will vastly overestimate your own capabilities, and be fooled into thinking that the human body is more fragile and attackable than it actually is.

Finally, do you honestly think that in most “real” fights there aren’t at least some social rules in play? I’ve never been in a fight, but I’ve seen several, and I’ve never seen one degenerate into nut-punching, eye-gouging, or trachea-smashing (except for Hackney in UFC 4). People don’t like to do those things in front of other people, even when their pride is at stake. Using “deadly” techniques on the street is more likely to result in legal and criminal problems for you, when you have to justify that you couldn’t have just punched the guy, you had to rip his eye out, then stomp on his throat. The right to defend oneself is not nearly as complete a legal shield as you may believe it to be.

And if nut-punching or trachea-smashing worked–if they were techniques that could instantly end fights easily–then they would be common in Vale Tudo, where they are legal. That they are not is demonstrative of how vastly some people overestimate their effectiveness.

Real world fights in the streets have no such limitations. Most street fights end in less than a 20 seconds.

This may or may not be true, but you’ve provided no substantiation. Additionally, what counts as a fight? A single thrown punch? Or does it have to be an actual battle to a clear resolution (one fighter gives up, is KOed, the fight is broken up…)? What’s more, MMA matches often last well under a minute, so by your metric, that makes them relatively realistic. Finally, trained sportfighters are likely to be able to end streetfights quickly and in their own favor, since, if I had to guess, the biggest source of short fights is a guy getting punched in the face and deciding it isn’t worth it. Sportfighters, as a rule, hit harder, faster, and more accurately than non-sportfighters, given that they are used to hitting people who are good at taking, avoiding, and blocking punches.

So for the students to compete in sport really pointless.

For the reasons above, that doesn’t follow.

As one that competed in combat sport

As is common with claims of this nature, we are predisposed to disbelieve you. Please provide your name, the sport in which you participated, and the organizations that held the events you participated in so that we can verify your fight record through the appropriate channels. If you prefer anonymity, you may provide that information to me privately through the PM system, or by e-mail (I’ll send you my e-mail address by PM). I promise that if you agree to this I will keep your name and contact information confidential.

and also worked as a bouncer

Please provide verification of this as well; we hear it quite a lot.

I can honestly say that there is not one technique that I used in the ring that I ever used in a real fight.

Without verification that you ever, in fact, stepped into the ring, this is a meaningless statement. It’s also patently absurd. Which techniques, which are illegal in MMA have you used in real fights instead of punching, kneeing, kicking, throwing, grappling etc? And if the techniques you used in the real world are legal in MMA, why didn’t you use them? Why weren’t they effective there?

I find that the way we train in The Kai is effective for real world combat.

Your anecdotal experience is unmoving. It would be less worthless if you gave us any reason to believe your claims about yourself. It still would be enough to offset the shared experiences of everyone on this site and the massive empirical testing represented by MMA competition, but at least you’d have something to rely on. And don’t start with the “I don’t care what you think” stuff, because you posted on this site, so you clearly do.

Oh and the Dog Brothers may call theirs a sport but we really know that it truly isn’t one by all sense of the word.

It’s a competitive physical activity geared toward training particular skills and attributes in a rules-governed environment. It’s a sport in every single sense of the word.

If you have any doubts about the Akumu system check it out… fortcollinsmma.com

You sound like an advertisement. Just a warning.

Sorry to respond to this guy, I just can’t help myself.

I enjoy thread necromancy.

Re: Too deadly for competition…the Last Samurai?

[

The students, dressed in black, fight each other with weapons that range from the somewhat outdated (knives) to the downright archaic (bamboo swords). Students generally use the bamboo swords to safely practice swordsmanship. But just ask the advanced students, and they’ll show you their exquisite live-blade swords.

Bujutsu and the samurai code of honor are featured in the film “The Last Samurai,” starring Tom Cruise. [/B][/QUOTE]

Bamboo swords ( shinai) are NOT archaic !!!

I will say this, after training with Bokuto ( bokken if you prefer), the hardwood swords that are SUPPOSE to be used in kenjutsu training, when I spar with someone who is “unarmed”… well lets just say that I am less concerned when I spar.

These guys sound serious. I am very interested.

Traditional bujutsu training is a serious thing and when you get to the point of handling a “live Blade”, that is where the fun begins.

Ronin… not flaming or being silly, but have you ever come close to cutting yourself or actually got cut training with a live blade?

there is an old quote for knife fighting:

“When two men fight with knives prepare two graves but if there is a winner you may find him in hospital”

Originally posted by Justme
Ronin… not flaming or being silly, but have you ever come close to cutting yourself or actually got cut training with a live blade?

I sliced my finger one time return the sword to its scabbard because I was distracted.
I was cut a few times in “live blade” knife training.
I was nicked in the military once, because some dick wanted to make a stupid point about knife fighting.

I guess these guys are a menace when armed…how would they do unarmed against a typical streetfighter? Is that a trick question?

How is the knife “somewhat outdated” by the way?

Because Helio invented chi blasts.

BUDO BLAST!!! whew…excuse me.