The Summer of Grappling and BJJ Red Herrings: JJJ Edition

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Trollshido
1

Dougguod…

No disrespect, I know that you guys see a lot of BS and your job is to call it out. Grey Phoenix never said it was “Too deadly to compete”. Rather, he said the focus is on survival in streetfight situations where rules don’t apply. For example a kick in the groin is not “too deadly” for competition, but is however against Most MMA rules including UFC. On the street, however, in a life or death situation, it represents a pretty good opportunity to get the upper hand on an opponent. I am a student of one of Professor Bellman’s 3rd degree black belts who moved away and I would run out of fingers and toes counting techniques that would be illegal in the ring that I’ve learned just on the way to purple belt not because they are deadly or dangerous, but just mean. To my knowlege, valley jujitsu will train fighters who wish to fight for sport, but do not sponsor fighters or cater techniques to comply with MMA rules, that’s all. Both Brazilian JJ and Mushin Ryu share common ancestry in Danzan Ryu, and use many of the same techniques and “principles”. The Gracies perfected a form of the art focused around organized competition, and what they did is absolutely wonderful for JJ and martial arts in general…there’s nothing wrong with a variation of the art that is focused more on street effectiveness versus organized competition. IMHO.

And if you disagree with it, be warned that I won’t fight volutarily, and if forced to, I’ll kick in the balls, pull hair, head butt, and then, using principles, show you WHY Hoyce Gracie did the pelvic arm bar better than 99% of MMA fighters today know how to do it :slight_smile:

JK but come on, my first post, needed to have a bit of testosterone in it!

2

Thread necro much?

[QUOTE=mushinstudent;2706861]
And if you disagree with it, be warned that I won’t fight volutarily, and if forced to, I’ll kick in the balls, pull hair, head butt, and then, using principles, show you WHY Hoyce Gracie did the pelvic arm bar better than 99% of MMA fighters today know how to do it :)[/QUOTE]

Cool story. When I get forced to fight, I choke people unconscious and destroy their limbs. The big difference between us is that I can be confident in my ability apply these techniques because I regularly practice them against resisting opponents. How many times have you kicked your partner full-force in the balls, or torn his hair out?

BTW, I appreciate that your sensei offers an onlne resource called Ultimate Street Defense. I am especially fond of the sections titled SAFETY AT AUTOMATED TELLER MACHINES, URBAN WARFARE, and U.S. MAIL SAFETY. Everyone knows that a complete martial arts teaches students how to lick stamps and find the nearest post office.

3

[QUOTE=mushinstudent;2706861]Both Brazilian JJ and Mushin Ryu share common ancestry in Danzan Ryu, and use many of the same techniques and “principles”. The Gracies perfected a form of the art focused around organized competition, and what they did is absolutely wonderful for JJ and martial arts in general…there’s nothing wrong with a variation of the art that is focused more on street effectiveness versus organized competition. IMHO.
[/QUOTE]

I’m going to just leave the rest of your post alone and concentrate on this one section.

  1. BJJ and Mushin Ryu do not share a common lineage through Danzan Ryu. It is arguable that they may share a common ancestry through Kodokan Judo, since Okazaki did train Kodokan some, along with a number of other styles of jiujitsu over the course of a year he spent in Japan. Meanwhile, Carlos Gracie was taught Kodokan Judo by Maeda.

  2. The Gracies met and began studying with Maeda in 1917. Danzan Ryu was founded in 1925.

  3. BJJ was developed by Carlos and Helio Gracie to make up for their small size. You see… once upon a time martial artists tested their arts by fighting each other. In Brazil at the time, the preferred format for this was Vale Tudo, no holds barred full contact fighting.

  4. The Gracies certainly got into plenty of street fights. Rio is and was not exactly the most law-abiding city on the planet. BJJ was based in part on their experience in street fighting.

  5. Today many BJJ gyms focus exclusively on competition. This is not always the case. Even if they always focus on competition, it is difficult to use the “McNasty” techniques, as we call them where I train, if you can’t control position. To nip this Street vs. Sport thing in the bud right now, many (not all, but many) of the submissions in BJJ can be applied standing. The only reason they’re typically done on the ground is that they tend to work better there, simply because it is easier to immobilize your opponent.

Oh… and it’s Royce. Don’t speak until you figure out why it’s pronounced “Hoyce”.

4

[QUOTE=mushinstudent;2706861]Dougguod…

No disrespect, I know that you guys see a lot of BS and your job is to call it out. Grey Phoenix never said it was “Too deadly to compete”. Rather, he said the focus is on survival in streetfight situations where rules don’t apply. For example a kick in the groin is not “too deadly” for competition, but is however against Most MMA rules including UFC.[/quote]

The “too deadly to compete” is still apt because most of the time these claims came win the UFC was young and things like kicking in the balls were allowed. Now adays is mainstream and had to adjust with the times but never think a MMA fighter will not kick someone in the balls. Hell I did it in a MMA match that was televised.

On the street, however, in a life or death situation, it represents a pretty good opportunity to get the upper hand on an opponent. I am a student of one of Professor Bellman’s 3rd degree black belts who moved away and I would run out of fingers and toes counting techniques that would be illegal in the ring that I’ve learned just on the way to purple belt not because they are deadly or dangerous, but just mean. To my knowlege, valley jujitsu will train fighters who wish to fight for sport, but do not sponsor fighters or cater techniques to comply with MMA rules, that’s all.

Do you know how much BJJ isn’t used in MMA or Muay Thai for that matter? I say this because people make similar clams all the time and think that people who train in arts that do compete in MMA don’t have mean and nasty techniques.

Both Brazilian JJ and Mushin Ryu share common ancestry in Danzan Ryu, and use many of the same techniques and “principles”.

WRONG!
BJJ roots stem from Kodokan Judo. Danzan Ryu has a shared history with Judo but both BJJ and DZR were founded the same year on two different places.

The Gracies perfected a form of the art focused around organized competition, and what they did is absolutely wonderful for JJ and martial arts in general…there’s nothing wrong with a variation of the art that is focused more on street effectiveness versus organized competition. IMHO.

WRONG again.
Gracies focused STREETFIGHTING! If you know anything about the culture of Brazil is that fighting comes in a close second to Soccer and a national past time. They love to fight and the Gracies developed their art to deal with real fights. Vale Tudo (anything goes where hair pulling, head butting, groin kick is still legal in some orgs there) were exhibitions where people could settle disputes. Tough guys to get up in front of a crowd and show their stuff. It used to be televised but people would get their arms broken and other injuries that it was canceled.

Bottomline the comeptition side of BJJ is big now, just like Judo before it, but that isn’t the focus of the art, self defense is.

And if you disagree with it, be warned that I won’t fight volutarily, and if forced to, I’ll kick in the balls, pull hair, head butt, and then, using principles, show you WHY Hoyce Gracie did the pelvic arm bar better than 99% of MMA fighters today know how to do it :slight_smile:

As I often paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :smiley: Those things would really piss me off and you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry and purple really isn’t my color.

JK but come on, my first post, needed to have a bit of testosterone in it!

Not enough testosterone next time use more name calling and a “COME AT ME BRO!”

5

Great point Spilt Cake. Want to get together so I can practice full force ball kicking?

6

I appreciate the info on Royce (I’ll never understand why it’s pronounced Hoyce, I don’t really care) and on BJJ roots. You are clearly more learned on it, but whatever the case you do prove my point that Mushin Ryu and BJJ do share some common ancestry. Gezere, it’s highly unlikely I’ll ever be in the position of kicking you in the balls and making you turn purple and angry, because: I don’t fight in the ring, I prefer not to be in a streetfight and would avoid it because, well, I like having teeth. I don’t run my mouth, I don’t talk shit, and I deescalate away from violence if at all possible.

I was making a joke. Since I’ve offended, I’ll apologize, offer to by your next drink and be on my way.

I take JJ for self defense. Most people with more training than I have aren’t going to outright, unprovoked, attack me or mine… and that’s what it would take to get me to fight. Many of the techniques I’ve learned are the very same learned in BJJ.

I appreciate what this forum does, because there are a lot of bullshido scam artists claiming to be Bruce Lee and charging students $$$ while talking crap…but I think most of the conversations are a bunch of my sensei/style/dojo is better than yours arguments by guys who talk tough. Unless a senior forum member here studies at that dojo, it’s just assumed it’s bullshido.

I appreciate BJJ and know there is real technique at work there. I am just tired of BJJ guys thinking that it if it isn’t BJJ, its bullshido.

7

[QUOTE=mushinstudent;2706942]Great point Spilt Cake. Want to get together so I can practice full force ball kicking?[/QUOTE]

Look for a Bullshido Throwdown in your area.

8

[QUOTE=Gray Phoenix;2353208]We often discuss the logic behind teaching throws (Nage) to someone who 30, 40, 50 years from now would not be able to do so[/QUOTE]

That’s getting put in the box marked “Really dumb stuff I have read on the internet.”

9

[QUOTE=mushinstudent;2706948]
I appreciate BJJ and know there is real technique at work there. I am just tired of BJJ guys thinking that it if it isn’t BJJ, its bullshido.[/QUOTE]

This is a community that encompasses far more than just BJJ’ers.

So, since you wisely avoid street fights, obviously you get all your ball-kicking done in class. On average, how many of your training partners do you 'nard in a week? How many times do you get 'narded in return? A rough estimate will be fine.

10

[QUOTE=mushinstudent;2706948]
I appreciate BJJ and know there is real technique at work there. I am just tired of BJJ guys thinking that it if it isn’t BJJ, its bullshido.[/QUOTE]Well, we are all tired of the pretentious TMAer coming here telling us what we think, how erroneous our beliefs are, the sport vs street debate and never noticing that it isn’t just BJJers pointing out the flaws in your thinking.

11

Mushinstudent, do youu spar at all? Roll? Randori? Does your JJ group do any kind of live training?

12

[QUOTE=mushinstudent;2706948]
Many of the techniques I’ve learned are the very same learned in BJJ.[/quote]

Here’s your problem, right here. It’s not so much what you learn, but how you learn it. Your statement betrays a misunderstanding of this fact. You can practice BJJ techniques, or karate techniques, or 25 principles of physics and body mechanics, but you’re wasting your time if you don’t practice against full resistance. Your techniques aren’t automatically awesome just because they are similar to BJJ. Effectiveness comes from training methodology, not techniques themselves. You limit yourself to an ineffective methodology, so you have ineffective results.

[QUOTE=mushinstudent;2706948] I appreciate what this forum does, because there are a lot of bullshido scam artists claiming to be Bruce Lee and charging students $$$ while talking crap…but I think most of the conversations are a bunch of my sensei/style/dojo is better than yours arguments by guys who talk tough. Unless a senior forum member here studies at that dojo, it’s just assumed it’s bullshido. [/quote]

How easy it is to call BS on others, yet how hard it is to see it in ourselves.

[QUOTE=mushinstudent;2706948]I appreciate BJJ and know there is real technique at work there. I am just tired of BJJ guys thinking that it if it isn’t BJJ, its bullshido.[/QUOTE]

Nobody here has said that. If it isn’t trained properly, it’s BS. There are practitioners of many different arts on this site, but what they have in common is an understanding of the importance of aliveness in training.

13

but I think most of the conversations are a bunch of my sensei/style/dojo is better than yours arguments by guys who talk tough. Unless a senior forum member here studies at that dojo, it’s just assumed it’s bullshido.

It’s funny because most of these arguments are started by people like you telling us how your sensei, dojo, or style is better than the ring, sport, or Bullshido posters.

14

[QUOTE=mushinstudent;2706861]Dougguod…

No disrespect, I know that you guys see a lot of BS and your job is to call it out. Grey Phoenix never said it was “Too deadly to compete”. Rather, he said the focus is on survival in streetfight situations where rules don’t apply. For example a kick in the groin is not “too deadly” for competition, but is however against Most MMA rules including UFC. On the street, however, in a life or death situation, it represents a pretty good opportunity to get the upper hand on an opponent. I am a student of one of Professor Bellman’s 3rd degree black belts who moved away and I would run out of fingers and toes counting techniques that would be illegal in the ring that I’ve learned just on the way to purple belt not because they are deadly or dangerous, but just mean. To my knowlege, valley jujitsu will train fighters who wish to fight for sport, but do not sponsor fighters or cater techniques to comply with MMA rules, that’s all. Both Brazilian JJ and Mushin Ryu share common ancestry in Danzan Ryu, and use many of the same techniques and “principles”. The Gracies perfected a form of the art focused around organized competition, and what they did is absolutely wonderful for JJ and martial arts in general…there’s nothing wrong with a variation of the art that is focused more on street effectiveness versus organized competition. IMHO.

And if you disagree with it, be warned that I won’t fight volutarily, and if forced to, I’ll kick in the balls, pull hair, head butt, and then, using principles, show you WHY Hoyce Gracie did the pelvic arm bar better than 99% of MMA fighters today know how to do it :slight_smile:

JK but come on, my first post, needed to have a bit of testosterone in it![/QUOTE]

To paraphrase my Sambo coach, who works in emergency services:
“I’ve seen guys get stabbed eighteen times in the chest and still keep fighting. But I’m sure if someone had only kicked him in the balls or poked him in the eye, he would’ve gone right down.”

15

That is some funny shit.

16

Gezere, it’s highly unlikely I’ll ever be in the position of kicking you in the balls and making you turn purple and angry, because: I don’t fight in the ring, I prefer not to be in a streetfight and would avoid it because, well, I like having teeth. I don’t run my mouth, I don’t talk shit, and I deescalate away from violence if at all possible.

I swear I am not trying to pick on you, and I remember what it was like when I first came to this forum, and didnt realize how stupid my words sounded but, this statement is just an excuse to never have to demonstrate the effectiveness of what you do. It is thinly disguised as the false maturity of the enlightened martial artist.

Or I am wrong, and you are boring, and a pu$$y. Everyone wants to keep their teeth, especialy if you rock diamonds in that grill, not fighting in the ring likely means you dont realy spar. Streetfights are stupid, but can be stupid fun! It is for that very reason that some of us channell that testosterone driven aggression into combat sports. In other words, guys that like to fight, find a way to fight. Guys who dont realy want to fight, play in sand volleyball tourneys or discuss fighting theory while sitting in a horse stance.

Talking shit and running my mouth is my fav’s by the way. I have good sportsmanship in the gym, but if your trying to poke at my eyes, I am gonna talk about your mom, and bang your GF after the fight.

17

[QUOTE=Gezere;2706920] paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :smiley: QUOTE]

Thanks, that’s going on my sig!!

18

I’m getting the impression that it doesn’t matter what I say, dumbfucks are just going to try and argue with it anyway. So thank you all for your insight, I’m going to go back to my bullshido martial art and watch you idiots knock eachother’s teeth out on tv. There’s no point in trying to have a rational discussion with a bunch of roided out tough guys. Fuckbullshido :slight_smile:

19

[QUOTE=mushinstudent;2707153]I’m getting the impression that it doesn’t matter what I say, dumbfucks are just going to try and argue with it anyway. So thank you all for your insight, I’m going to go back to my bullshido martial art and watch you idiots knock eachother’s teeth out on tv. There’s no point in trying to have a rational discussion with a bunch of roided out tough guys. Fuckbullshido :)[/QUOTE]

lolbye

Is there a Bullshido bingo? Because this would hit a lot of squares.

20

[QUOTE=mushinstudent;2707153]I’m getting the impression that it doesn’t matter what I say, dumbfucks are just going to try and argue with it anyway. So thank you all for your insight, I’m going to go back to my bullshido martial art and watch you idiots knock eachother’s teeth out on tv. There’s no point in trying to have a rational discussion with a bunch of roided out tough guys. Fuckbullshido :)[/QUOTE]

No roids, not a tough guy, i have never been in an amateur or professional fight. I’m not a good athlete. My striking is unproven and my grappling is not at a high level but I have a good idea of what it can and cannot do. No delusions. That is the point around here. We are on the Internet but in a Moderated forum and are here to argue and discuss using REASON! If you don’t use evidence and logical arguments there is no point! Facts must be checked. The argument style outside of newbie town is rough but it’s just words and you will get called out when you don’t back up statements. Not more complicated than that.