The Dune Thread (spoilers)

Sociocide
41

Yeah, I read all of the Dorsai series, more than once, but again, that was maybe in the 90s to mid 2000s? I was heavily into Judo at the time, was training multiple days a week, while in grad school and afterwards. So the martial arts and mental/emotional training was of interest to me.

As I recall, the Dorsai were trained from a early age (little kids), in ways appropriate to kids. They were literally brought up and specifically trained to be what they became, and there were of course different levels and specialties of Dorsai, right? I’m working off of memory here…

So I would say getting too hung up on specifics of technique is probably not the way to go. I’d say the Dorsai stuff was more realistic than what I understand of Dune, even if the underlying ideas about “training” were not far from wrong.

If I had brought up my kids knowing what I know about training now, they would both be even more athletically gifted than they are now, particularly referencing Judo. But I chose to not try to constrain their activity to just my chosen obsession, with good reason.

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42

Huh? Star War is FUN with characters that are trying to enjoy themselves.

43

Don’t even try to keep up with Phrost on this kind of shit. It’s out of your wheelhouse.

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44

This also describes people who prefer chicken nuggets and drink chocolate milk over steak.

Toddlers.

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45

I love sci fi. Read a nice chunk of dune til the author died. It’s DRY.

46

The thing is that the Dorsai books were better versed in military matters than in martial arts per se.

In one of the Dorsai books you had one of the Dorsai big named characters take revenge by effortlessly killing with his own hands a foe who was “just” a wrestler.

THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA was a later book in the Dorsai universe and the lead there was supposed to be the final hope of mankind and all that, by melding the teachings of the Dorsai with those of the other big cultural groups. (Almost another ChosenOne narrative, which Herbert had already called into question, as Phrost said). And that inconsistency there of someone being put to sleep easily with a choke after a scene making a big deal of how hard it was to handle someone attacking wildly without hurting him, was rather obvious hogwash even to a karate guy like me with only small grappling training.

DUNE, while less about specific techniques, had a rather more enlightened perspective in terms of general understanding of what training in specific conditions/restrictions implied and the differences between compliant and live training. Sure, the Bene Gesserit seemed more like the magic warrior monks of Asian stereotypes, but they were supposed to have enhanced physical and sensory abilities because of the emphasis on eugenics and life-long training. And really, who cannot love a book with sex-trained-ninja-nuns?

In contrast, I recall even Heinlein, a military man, to speak in his writing about karate in terms much like DA DEADLYZ of what we make fun nowadays, but those were really simpler times, and indeed we do know better now.

If only someone had had the wisdom back in the day to tell me not to do all those bunny-hop laps, among other dumb crap, I may still be able to walk normally today.

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47

Not to be a Phrost-nuthugger, but that kinda seems like a pretty general truism.

This thread also reminds me of the somewhat related moment when reading Clavell’s SHOGUN, and reaching the part where a village elder makes the lead character submitt to being bathed, by using pressure-point techniques, stating that the man was an expert in karate. And even back then in those days of yore I knew that the name karate was completely anachronistic in the book’s time setting, and that was one of the first instances when I realized maybe those book-author guys may know even less than I did about some things.

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48

:rofl:

ITS DRY…

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49

I read Shogun, too. I remember that, LOL. I was like, WTF, karate… WTF…

thanks for reminding me of that.

50

Artistic license and all that…

I thought the Dorsai stuff took a much more holistic view for sure. As I wrote, there were specialties within the Dorsai world, just as the human race had split off into specialized groups (Friendlies, etc).

It’s probably unrealistic to expect total realism from science fiction, right?

51

Indeed. And we must always take into account how long ago these were written.

52

Sure. But I, as a combat sport coach with a fair amount of training and experience in how to develop athletes from a young age (and experience as a parent in child-rearing), can imagine how a well-designed training regimen in general, and for those physically inclined enough to specialize, in hand to hand combat (and weapons as well), could develop people with almost magical seeming powers.

I’m not talking about the survival of the fittest Soviet (or even Japanese) models (from Judo) type of stuff.

It all fits in with the specialization of humanity in Dickson’s universe, and the attempt at reintegration…

Overarching theme?

53

New movie is pretty faithful in THAT, too!

54

Dune, it’s a dry topic… I’m STILL chortling…

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55

I actually liked the Dorsai books quite a lot, so it’s not like I am condemning them. I think the overarching themes do follow a bit of the same Herbert-like preoccupation with the evolution of not just mankind but also of social structures, even if more seriously coming to it later in the series. Herbert did also touch upon the specialization of cultures (Ix-Thleilaux-BG-etc) as well as fragmentation and reintegration. But Dickson did start from a more pulp adventure basis and fell back on ChosenOne tropes and the like and could contradict himself within the same novel, so I kinda hold him in lesser regard even if he is much more readable than Herbert in many ways, because strictly technically, as a wordsmith, Frank could go on and on, and really, really be… DRY!

And sure, perhaps the lead in ENCYCLOPEDIA only had specialized striking-like training and little grappling, after all he also had to devote time to learning the Exotics and Friendlies bits, too, so he was more of a generalist, and THAT was much of the point. But hey, I am a crappy krotty guy, and devoted time also to engineering, theater, porn, comics, art, porn, comic porn, and um, er, you know, even I knew back then enough to rear-choke or side-choke some guy without needing to kill him, so that sorta rubbed me the wrong way. And I did not like the then-prevalent looking-down upon wrestling. Because I had already trained some grappling and IT WAS HARD, dammit.

But it was artistic license, perhaps, as you said, but it smacked to me more like the Heinlein bit. As in Dickson being more of the military kind who had only cursory martial arts know-how but had believed some of the then-prevalent hype.

I think the last book of the series I read was The Chandry Guild and cannot recall a thing about it. I think I also have The Antagonist around but never got to it. I think knowing the series would never be finished kinda dampened my interest.

I now remember I was going to mention before in the thread that one of the very first martial arts books I read was a karate manual by a well-known teacher who trained the Guatemalan military, and almost a third of the book was bayonet drills! I wonder how much of that is still of any use.

56

All very reasonable and well put, thanks!

Yeah, Heinlein and H2H… just… yeah…then there is his infatuation with men with large penises.

57

I think bayonet
stuff is still prevalent in the Japanese military… I’d have to do some research to find out. Some history there, for sure.

58

I read all of those, can’t remember any details. There was an “evil” genius type involved, as I recall…

59

Anyway, sorry (not really) for the diversion. I know nothing about Dune other than spice, glowing blue eyes, guys with bad skin, eating cow tongues, giant worms, and still suits.

60

Dune reminds me a lot of Foundation in terms of its feel. Both get better as the series goes on. But the pacing, mannerisms and writing style, make for a dull feel. I’m more a Heinlein type.