Its a monestery on a Mountain , much like Wudang.
Iron Buddha “I’m wondering myself. Seems like Freddy went to China and had a bad trip. Met a bunch of wankers selling him Wushu and concluded that the whole frikkin country…yup…the WHOLE frikkin country must be devoid of TMA.”
I will repeat again I NEVER said the whole country is devoted to TMA. Stop putting words in my mouth. This is the second time you did it.
To quote myself “I never said real kung fu is no longer in the mainland. Infact during various times kung fu was banned or banned in certain regions and went underground. Has kung fu been distorted? Probably.”
Omar. What I was saying is a real research (conducted by academics who studies this stuff) gets source material, researches and escavates. Stuff we don’t get to do. Problem with MA history is that a lot of it is bullshit but we aren’t in a position to prove or disprove it due to lack of evidence. We can quote one thing and find five other things that counter the point made. Until someone gets sufficient evidence to make some concrete conclusions, we’re left in the dark.
As far as general knowledge, yes, most of us here would have more knowledge than academic grads. Thing is, they don’t study MA history at all. Their specialties are very focused and they are generaly ignorant of stuff like MA subculture. PhD’s are not all encompassing.
I would say a lot of the source material we deal with has been filtered and distorted, hence a lot of controversy. The Shaolin and Wudang thing is very debatable. It is not proven fact. Maybe it is true. but until evidence proves it, we can’t make that call. On the other hand, there is a lot of evidence showing otherwise…but not sufficient to disprove the other either.
Omar “You agree that they paint that picture or you agree with the picture?”
I agree they paint that picture.
Thanks Freddy. That’s actually what I though but the wording of your post made it impossible for me to tell.
Iron Buddha,
I understand what your saying but I still say speak for yourself. I do get source material, research and well…I haven’t been on a dig but neither have most professors. I went all the way to the Gobi dessert at one point to get a better handle on some of the stuff I was into. I found some Ouigers in the History dept in a local college where I was living and picked their brains. I learned Chinese so I could stop working through a middle man. I go to the museums and check out the articfact. I work in a University and there is no shortage of resources. I am an inner door student with someone who has a lot of amazing shit stored away which he didn’t buy at an MA supply shop. Documents, newspaper articles etc. I’ve found that if you cross check your sources and compare with what you do know historically to be true, a reasonably consistent picture emerges. In any case it’s not only Phd’s who ‘do the work’.
And what part of the Shaolin and Wudang ‘thing’ is debatable? There is certainly a lot of apocryphal information out there but what I said is pretty factual. Virtually all styles in China, not every one but the vast majority, sort themselves into ‘Shaolin’ or ‘Wudang’.
Ronin,
Emei is an actual mountain. It’s in Sichuan, about a 15 hour train ride from where I live. There are many monestaries there, the majority are Buddhist. It’s not really close to Wudang but the only MA I havever heard of associated with the place is ‘Swimming Dragon’ Baguazhang.
Thinking of arts that don’t fall into the two categories I came up with another one, Shuai Jiao.
I thought that there was a muslim northern longfist styles? I believe that’s what Adam Hsu’s school teaches.
That’s Tan Tui. Jason Tsou teaches it too. Very popular among Muslims. It’s basically Northern Shaolin. I’ve yety to hear anything definative about it’s origins. AFAIK it dpesn’t look like a style in it’s self. It’s a series of drills. I’ve seen it taught, especially to children, at schools of all sorts of different styles. That could be another exception. In my experience, it’s usually presented as Northern Shaolin. But then, I keep hearing that Baji is a muslim style and it just isn’t. It’s Wudang. Tan Tui is not Wudang.
You could be thinking of Pigua too. I honestly don’t know much about it’s background even though I’ve trained in it a bit. It was introduced to me as “A northern style.”
I really think the ‘Muslim Style’ in most cases is a misnomer. It’s just that these Hui guys really seem to like MA. It may be a racial stereotype but Han Chinese have told me jokingly that if I do business with a Hui, I better carry a knife!!!
:eek: But I must confess my first thought when you mention the Hui is the ‘Yan Rou Pao Mo’, A big huge bowl of shredded flatbread filled with hot broth and big greasy chunks of fatty lamb…mmm…6 days left.
Originally posted by Omar
[B]That’s Tan Tui. Jason Tsou teaches it too. Very popular among Muslims. It’s basically Northern Shaolin. I’ve yety to hear anything definative about it’s origins. AFAIK it dpesn’t look like a style in it’s self. It’s a series of drills. I’ve seen it taught, especially to children, at schools of all sorts of different styles. That could be another exception. In my experience, it’s usually presented as Northern Shaolin. But then, I keep hearing that Baji is a muslim style and it just isn’t. It’s Wudang. Tan Tui is not Wudang.
You could be thinking of Pigua too. I honestly don’t know much about it’s background even though I’ve trained in it a bit. It was introduced to me as “A northern style.”
I really think the ‘Muslim Style’ in most cases is a misnomer. It’s just that these Hui guys really seem to like MA. It may be a racial stereotype but Han Chinese have told me jokingly that if I do business with a Hui, I better carry a knife!!!
:eek: But I must confess my first thought when you mention the Hui is the ‘Yan Rou Pao Mo’, A big huge bowl of shredded flatbread filled with hot broth and big greasy chunks of fatty lamb…mmm…6 days left. [/B]
Well,since u had went to china did you know a MA known as “tang ping quan”?
This is Emei:
Originally posted by Omar
[B]That’s Tan Tui. Jason Tsou teaches it too. Very popular among Muslims. It’s basically Northern Shaolin. I’ve yety to hear anything definative about it’s origins. AFAIK it dpesn’t look like a style in it’s self. It’s a series of drills. I’ve seen it taught, especially to children, at schools of all sorts of different styles. That could be another exception. In my experience, it’s usually presented as Northern Shaolin. But then, I keep hearing that Baji is a muslim style and it just isn’t. It’s Wudang. Tan Tui is not Wudang.
[/B]
Tan Tui, to the best of my knowledge is in a system of it’s own that I had come to know as Tams. Tan Tui is a form in the system. As far as origins go, the set I have is from southwest china. I believe that just about every major system has the tan tui set in one form or another.
My set which is from Chinese derivation has 12 sets. I know that there is a muslim form of this that is 10 sets.
Tan tui is an endurance and power building exercise.
liuzg150181,
Is Tang Ping Quan aupposed to be a muslim style too? I’ve never heard of it. If it is, do you know what ‘Tang Ping’ means or at least the tones for the 2 characters? I’m flying back to Xi’an next Sunday and it’s a city with a pretty big Muslim population, both Hui and Ouigers. I love hearing about shit I never heard of before so if I knew for sure how to pronounce it, I would ask around. A couple of the more famous Hui MA teachers are in Xi’an. Ma Xian Da, who is known for Baji and Zhao Xiang Wu, who’s teacher Ma Zhen Bang is a highly respected Hsing Yi master are both in the area.
One particularly powerfull teacher I met who is completely unknown teaches a style called Shao Mo Quan. HIs teacher supposedly went to Berlin with some sort of demonstration team during the Olympics back in Nazi Germany. I never was able to find any info on that style other than him.
Awsome pic btw, Ronin. It still doesn’t contradict my assertion that Emei is a mountain, not a monestary though. When I first went to China, my mom arranged a nearly 3 week tour and asked me if there was anywhere I wanted to make sure was on the list. The only 2 places I could think of were Shaolin and Emei. 4 years later I still haven’t made it to Emei. And it’s damn close too. And my GF even has family in Sichuan. Her Dad grew up in Chengdu which is just 160 km from the mountain. The timing just hasn’t worked out yet. Maybe this year.
From the following website:
http://whc.unesco.org/sites/779.htm[i]
The first Buddhist temple in China was built here in Sichuan Province in the 1st century A.D. in the beautiful surroundings of the summit of Mount Emei. The addition of other temples turned the site into one of Buddhism’s holiest sites. Over the centuries, the cultural treasures grew in number. The most remarkable is the Giant Buddha of Leshan, carved out of a hillside in the 8th century and looking down on the confluence of three rivers. At 71 m high, it is the largest Buddha in the world. Mount Emei is also notable for its exceptionally diverse vegetation, ranging from subtropical to subalpine pine forests. Some of the trees there are more than 1,000 years old.[/i]
more pics: http://www.terragalleria.com/asia/china/emei-shan/emei-shan.html
Apparently Emei has gong-fu connotations only in America.
Mantis,
Amazing, an apparently ‘muslim’ style that looks like northern shaolin that comes out of Southwest China where there’s almost no muslims and it’s abviously NOT NORTH. I’ve often wondered if it was a style in it’s own. I doubt most major systems have a tan tui set. Y.C. Wong for instance occasionally taught one but it is NOT part of the Hung Gar Curriculum, nor is it part of Baji. I figure it’s a bit like Gung Lik Kuen, which is taught in many schools but not formally part of their system. It’s just such a nice little introduction to so many principles common to all styles. I was told the Gung Lik Kuen form I learned was from Eagle Claw but I have seen a Mantis Version of it that was clearly the same set with only minor variations.
Sorry if I was unclear, Emei, Like Wudang, IS a monestray NAMED after the mountain its on.
Originally posted by Omar
Mantis,
Amazing, an apparently ‘muslim’ style that looks like northern shaolin that comes out of Southwest China where there’s almost no muslims and it’s abviously NOT NORTH. I’ve often wondered if it was a style in it’s own. I doubt most major systems have a tan tui set. Y.C. Wong for instance occasionally taught one but it is NOT part of the Hung Gar Curriculum, nor is it part of Baji. I figure it’s a bit like Gung Lik Kuen, which is taught in many schools but not formally part of their system. It’s just such a nice little introduction to so many principles common to all styles. I was told the Gung Lik Kuen form I learned was from Eagle Claw but I have seen a Mantis Version of it that was clearly the same set with only minor variations.
Omar,
In addition to tan tui, in what I believe is in the tams system. Gung Lik Kuen is another form in Tams, I am not trained in that, but I do have another form from the system known as Din Dah Kuen which is commonly referred to as a sister form to the Gung Lik Kuen. These tams sets have different names in the north, there may also be variations in movement as well, but ?
It would be my best guess that Tams originated in China and spread throughout the martial world. This is a very though provoking discussion, thanks for your imput.
Omar,
When you say that styles can be classified into Shaolin or Wudang, are you saying that that is the source of the style? As in it was all centralized and spread from Shaolin or Wudang? Or merely as a classification much like internal/external?
I ask because I have some old books on MA and there is rarely any mention of either place and instead points to family traditions of passing on a handful of techniques as the source of most styles. Also, a lot of stuff shows that Chuan Fa/Wushu predates both Daoism and Buddhism. I’ll have to look into it again for more specifics.
I’m not saying that Buddhism/Daoism didn’t influence CMA, it influenced every aspect of their culture. But to say that CMA originated from either of them is real iffy.
Originally posted by IronBuddha
I’m not saying that Buddhism/Daoism didn’t influence CMA, it influenced every aspect of their culture. But to say that CMA originated from either of them is real iffy.
Tamo brought chan buddhism to the shaolin temple, what this was was a hard work ethic, which had a direct influence on the art.
Originally posted by Omar
liuzg150181,
Is Tang Ping Quan aupposed to be a muslim style too? I’ve never heard of it. If it is, do you know what ‘Tang Ping’ means or at least the tones for the 2 characters? I’m flying back to Xi’an next Sunday and it’s a city with a pretty big Muslim population, both Hui and Ouigers. I love hearing about shit I never heard of before so if I knew for sure how to pronounce it, I would ask around. A couple of the more famous Hui MA teachers are in Xi’an. Ma Xian Da, who is known for Baji and Zhao Xiang Wu, who’s teacher Ma Zhen Bang is a highly respected Hsing Yi master are both in the area. One
Okay,it is tang1 ping2 quan2,and it is a MA exculsively for the Hui people,if i am not wrong “tang ping” refers to a kind of pot the muslims used~~~
And you are lucky to have such great MA teacher,I am currently learning Hsing yi too~~~
Can you read Chinese?I have a Chinese website that talks abt Muslim Hui MA(includes tang ping quan):
http://www.wushuweb.com/forum/Announce/Announce.asp?BoardID=69&ID=305311
Liuzg,
I’m totally busting ass to get out the door right now so I don’t have time to check out the site but I AM very interested. Yes I do read and speak Chinese.
Ronin,
Gotcha.
Iron,
I’m saying it’s usefull as a classification like internal/external. Take Baji, for example. It doesn’t come from the actual Wudang mountain but is considered ‘wudang pai’. I think the Liu Yun Qiao guys tend to refer to Baji or at least Pigua as being ‘muslim’ Jason Tsou and Tony Yang, 2 of the most notable Baji teachers I know of here in the States, call their organization ‘Wudang Assc.’.
for the most part internal = wudang; external = Shaolin. Nevermind that LOTS of the ‘daoist’ qi-gong practices can be traced back to Shaolin. The Chinese have always been pretty heterodox anyways.
Mantis,
You seem to have the closest background to me on this thread. I got things to say but your bringing up things I don’t think I can comment on, ‘on the fly’.
Gotta run. Love this thread. I can’t wait to get back. 4 days and counting . . .
Originally posted by Omar
[B]Liuzg,
I’m totally busting ass to get out the door right now so I don’t have time to check out the site but I AM very interested. Yes I do read and speak Chinese.
Ronin,
Gotcha.
Iron,
I’m saying it’s usefull as a classification like internal/external. Take Baji, for example. It doesn’t come from the actual Wudang mountain but is considered ‘wudang pai’. I think the Liu Yun Qiao guys tend to refer to Baji or at least Pigua as being ‘muslim’ Jason Tsou and Tony Yang, 2 of the most notable Baji teachers I know of here in the States, call their organization ‘Wudang Assc.’.
for the most part internal = wudang; external = Shaolin. Nevermind that LOTS of the ‘daoist’ qi-gong practices can be traced back to Shaolin. The Chinese have always been pretty heterodox anyways.
Mantis,
You seem to have the closest background to me on this thread. I got things to say but your bringing up things I don’t think I can comment on, ‘on the fly’.
Gotta run. Love this thread. I can’t wait to get back. 4 days and counting . . . [/B]
Well, wish you a good trip to China and remember to write back how it is like over there~~~:D