I had read long ago…would take some time to re-research this…
There were two temples. the southern temple was destroyed in the 19th century.
I was referring to Boogers’ post.
Philbert and Mantis posted simultaneously with me.
Originally posted by Mr_Mantis
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t the communists drive out most if not all martial arts people and places of practice, until realizing what tradition they had lost, then tried to make a nationally sanctioned martial art which is commonly referred to as wushu, but is completely devoid of any real martial use?
Oh man…here goes the Commie bashing again. Look guys, the Communists, in all their lunacy post WW2 didn’t have a vendetta against MA practitioners. They basically said you can’t practice it as there was a ban on all weapons but they didn’t kill MA’ers on a systematic basis or deport them. So when the ban was lifted, a lot of the old kung-fu guys were still around and came out of the woodwork. What was lost is a generation of students. Later, the government started the athletic board and invited a whole bunch of the old guys onto it (and a lot of them didn’t since they did not agree to the direction the board was taking). The Commies had an issue with the old establishment, so if you were a MA’er and got sentenced to “re-education camp” it’s probably because you were involved in the government to some degree.
This “Commies killed Kung-fu” myth is perpetuated by HK and Taiwan teachers, who for political reasons, have no love for the Commies and would love to say that their MA is better than mainland China. I’ve been to Taiwan, been to China. The level of MA in China is significantly higher than in Taiwan, both traditional and modern San Shou. As to how many of these TMA’ers can break necks? Not many. Some of their teachers could but most of them do not have the training equipment or the environment to get to that level.
In regards to san shou the Hong Kong guys statistically do better than the mainland guys. As for Shuai jiao the taiwan guys still do better than the maniland guys. How often do the mainland guys spar? How often do they trained as professional fighters? Hardly.
“The Commies had an issue with the old establishment, so if you were a MA’er and got sentenced to “re-education camp” it’s probably because you were involved in the government to some degree.”
Anything and anyone that represented the past was targeted. Teachers were targeted. Priests were targeted. Martial arts were banned. etc
Freddy. The Chinese have professional San Shou teams in all major cities representing every province that compete for national team status. I hardly believe that HK with their population pool can keep up. If they have beaten their mainland counterparts on national level events, let me know. Last I checked the national champions were all from the mainland.
As far as Shuai Jiao, there are professional coaches. From what I understand, the pro teams are dying due to a lack of funding as well as increased funding to San Shou. I’ve met a few of the Shuai Jiao coaches that teach the San Shou teams now and these guys can throw, on a resisting target, and do so for a living. Are there professional Shuai Jiao guys in Taiwan? That compete in full contact sports?
Yeah…they targeted a lot of people. But MA was not systematically destroyed. And I’ve met the older generation from that time period too. And they didn’t forget their MA and they continued to teach after the ban. So no, you can’t say that REAL kung-fu is no longer in the mainland. A lot of people would like you do believe otherwise. They paint the picture that everyone was killed and that all that is left is Wushu. This can’t be further from the truth. Thing is, most of these people don’t have schools so finding them is rather difficult.
I’ve actually read the “Commies killed kung-fu in the mainland” myth in brochures and stuff. Funny thing is that those brochures are printed by HK or Taiwanese teachers. Just trying to nab more students.
I would love to see your HK statistics btw.
“Yeah…they targeted a lot of people. But MA was not systematically destroyed. And I’ve met the older generation from that time period too. And they didn’t forget their MA and they continued to teach after the ban. So no, you can’t say that REAL kung-fu is no longer in the mainland.”
I never said real kung fu is no longer in the mainland. Infact during various times kung fu was banned or banned in certain regions and went underground. Has kung fu been distorted? Probably. Shou Yu Linag mentions how he had to escape red guards comming after him. Doo Wai had a number of his family members killed. Even Jimmy Woo left. etc.
“I would love to see your HK statistics btw.”
Look at the statistics between san shou vs muay thai. The guys from HK tend to do fairly well. (Mind you there are good mainland guys.) The problem with mainland martial arts is that they had their head in the sand too long. The Hong Kong, Macao, Taiwan guys have more exposer to the rest of the world. Not to mention acces to better training equipment. One would be lucky to find decent equipment in mainland.
“They paint the picture that everyone was killed and that all that is left is Wushu.”
Which I have to agree.
You agree that they paint that picture or you agree with the picture?
ironbuddha is correct. don’t believe the hype from hong kong and taiwan.
also, there’s as many crappy teachers in china as in the US, and for the same reasons.
Originally posted by Omar
You agree that they paint that picture or you agree with the picture?
I’m wondering myself. Seems like Freddy went to China and had a bad trip. Met a bunch of wankers selling him Wushu and concluded that the whole frikkin country…yup…the WHOLE frikkin country must be devoid of TMA.
Lots of useful information here. But you just don’t know when someone calls their art Shao Lin if its the genuine thing or not. They can ssay anything like ’ Yes heres how we are related to Ching Chongs school in Wongs dynasy". Unless your a certified Asian Historian with martial arts interest you can’t tell if its the real thing or not.
Which is why I say lineage is pointless. See I judge a school on the quality of training and instruction. Who care where it comes from or how old it is aslong as it works and can save you from harm.
Certified Asian Historian with a martial arts interest…ha ha!
You mean like a professor right? I talked to my prof about that and as far as he knew, there wasn’t any REAL history profs that would dedicate themselves to it since its academic value is close to nil. It’s a subculture. Like doing your PhD on skaters and goths.
That being said, I’m not sure what academic circles he hangs in. He teaches at the University of Toronto and seems to be well respected, so I would imagine it’s pretty accurate for Canada and the US at least.
HAH! I couldn’t give a rat’s ass over a PHD anymore in certain subjects. I’ll match my non-degree holding noggin’ against Phd’s any day of the week if the subject is gong-fu, history included! I’ve sat down with Harvard grads being quizzed on Chinese history and politics and etc. and been treated with nothing but respect and apparently for what I know on the subject. I guess I should take that back. I do seriously respect a Phd but I also happen to think that my personal studies over the past 8 years match up just fine.
Hannibal,
AFAIK there IS no ‘genuine thing’ where Shaolin is concerned. You would be very hard pressed to find anything other than nd Long Fist which can actually claim Shaolin heritige. Hung Gar comes close as it can trace it’s lineage back to the destruction of the temple at Fukien. Calling an art ‘Shaolin’ has a very usefull purpose though.
It’s a category. Nearly every single style can be categorized into 1 of 2 broad categories.
- Shaolin
- Wudang
And don’t bring up the so-called muslim styles. Find me a ‘muslim’ style that was actually invented by a muslim.There have been an awful lot of great muslim fighters and teachers but BAJI!!! . . . for instance, started with a Daoist and falls under category 1. Wudang. The only styles I can think of which I don’t know absolutely to not be created by muslims (which in this contect pretty much means the Hui minority) are Cha Quan and Pigua.
Choi Li Fut, WC, Hung Gar, White Eyebrow, most animal styles, Chang Quan, Da Hong Quan etc. are all ‘Shaolin’ styles even though only a couple of them were likely taught in the Shaolin temple.
Baji, Bagua, Taiji, Hsing Yi, Liu He Ba Fa, Ziranmen and others all are Wudang.
There is much overlap but . . .(maybe an article is in the order.) fuck it. I got shit to do before I get out of town.
I agree with Omar. Very good point.
Omar, what about Emei?
Wudang dude.
er…ma-wise. In most peoples minds in China the mountain is associated with Buddhism but re: Ma? Wudang. It’s daoist stuff anyways.
WTF is emei anyway? i know it’s a mountain, but what’s their deal? what’s their association with MA?
Emei is where, I think, Tiger claw and White Eyebrow may have been created.