I noticed that right away. Yes KSM’s observation has merit on this account. And I can’t speak for the Shotokan people but I do think that the general impression persists that because Funikashi decided to walk through life as a nice guy, that he was not a tough old … and this would appear to be a falsehood of the highest order.
What it boils down to is there is no explosiveness in the techniques demonstrated in these videos… the stances are high and people are moving the whole body at once. It might even be good movement but it is not Shotokan Karate movement. I think the Klingon has a valid critique!
I was with the death squad right up until I saw the students performing the kata. Lord knows how the Bullshido orthodoxy likes to ratpack when somoene percieves a wrongful critique but… it is bad when a student who is not 80 years old performs a kata in geriatric mode unless there is a compelling reason, or a full knowledge that they are performing the kata in this fashion as “evolution” or otherwise.
If you guys want to open the door for critique stick to the fucking program. Because the guy is 80 years old he can’t be doing a disservice to karate training? I am not sayng he is BTW only that to raise an eyebrow at the possability is not far fetched under the circumstances.
What I would be interested in knowing is the reasons the kata’s are done this way. In my Okinawan SRR days we did the kata’s with higher stances for compelling reasons related to combat applications… is that why these guys do it that way? Is there some reason why the katas move everything at once? when traditionally in karate punching the leg and hip move first? Hey maybe they discovered the Rosetta Stone! but it is different!
I think the point is we can all see the deficiency in technique from his students (I admit, I only had the stomach to watch heian shodan, so things may have gotten better after that), but he’s specifically calling bullshit on Harada.
There was a brief discussion entertaining the notion that they were training that way purposefully on page one/two. At any point, KSM could have emailed the school and invited them into the thread to discuss his viewpoint. I can’t recall him do that.
I guess what I’m trying to get across is that if he wanted it investigating strenuously, he should have made it more compelling. Or focussed on something like the no-touch knockout, which he only mentioned in passing. That sort of stuff is definitely questionable.
What I would be interested in knowing is the reasons the kata’s are done this way. In my Okinawan SRR days we did the kata’s with higher stances for compelling reasons related to combat applications… is that why these guys do it that way? Is there some reason why the katas move everything at once? when traditionally in karate punching the leg and hip move first? Hey maybe they discovered the Rosetta Stone! but it is different!
For all I know, the katas could have been so bad because they only train in them occasionally and spend the rest of their training time fighting full-contact enshin/kyok style… do I think this likely? No.
Listen far be it for me, or anybody else for that matter to critisize having a set of standards to apply when critiquing something intelligently.
Standards are a great thing, the scientific method is based on standards and we can see the effects on the world.
Let me say this: I don’t know where Mccoy’s critique belongs. I stopped posting here for a while because I got fed up with the more juveile death squads. I think everyone has posted intelligently on this point but I would suggest it might be a valid critique regardless of where it belongs because:
In Shotokan Karate Katas are usually done to emphasize certain movements, low stances and to generate power. “one hit one kill” “every block should break an arm” are two verbal homages one would likely hear in the Shotokan clubs we trained with… at least in the mid eighties when I was still a skinny lad in college haha.
I looked at the first student doing a kata for 5 seconds and… as somoene who has a nidan, studied Okinawan Sho Ran Ryu (though I still can’t spell it) for about ten years, and played with many Shotokan guys in the ring… unless the art has suddenly evolved that is not a Shotokan kata done properly… by any stretch of the imagination.
I would be cautious that Mccoy’s critique though missplaced might have merits… especially if somoene were to believe they were studying traditional Shotokan Karate.
BTW the old guy doing the trained seal routine off the Gai Dan Block did not bother me, just a cultural thing to show respect for the teacher… I could live with that! haha. Even the claims of eighty year old combat mastery…ok, Morhei U set thestandard on that one, but the student doing the kata… all my bells started ringing!!!
[quote=sochin101]I think the point is we can all see the deficiency in technique from his students (I admit, I only had the stomach to watch heian shodan, so things may have gotten better after that), but he’s specifically calling bullshit on Harada.
There was a brief discussion entertaining the notion that they were training that way purposefully on page one/two. At any point, KSM could have emailed the school and invited them into the thread to discuss his viewpoint. I can’t recall him do that.
dsimon writes:
You lasted a lot longer than I did Sochin! I lasted about 5 seconds… and I want to assure you I am not a U-tube, “ohhh !!! my god those guys are so bad!!!” kind of a guy. It wasn’t half bad, just not Shotokan as I have seen any of it… including where guys fought fluidly with the stuff!!! You actually can step gently and generate power in Shotokan (I have seen fighters do it) and you can fight from kiba Dachi (cat stance) in Shotokan, but you still move your leg and hips first then the punch, or kick is delivered.
I see you do Gendai. So when I claim to be teaching the Buj (which I do BTW haha) and use rigid snapping movements in executing Gyoko Ryu Kihon… you wouldn’t have a problem with that?
If you say no then I stand corrected, but if yes then you are a hypocrite.
It is not an opinion for a Shotokan guy to say that what somoene is calling Shotokan is not Shotokan… anymore than the myraid frauds who claim to teach Gendai arts that are doing karate movements and sometimes Ju Jutsu. :ninjadanc
What does this have to do with not providing proof? No one said he can’t critique karate. Yet, he called the gentleman bullshido, said he can’t kick above his waist, that his certification may or may not be real, and would get beat up by a twelve year old girl.
These aren’t critiques on Shotokan, Karate-Do, buj, kempo or whatever. These are personal insults that have no place in an investigation. Plus, as you keep missing, he has provided no foundation for these assertions.
I was responding to the assertion that the student’s performance was proof of something that… while not bad looking, would be hard pressed to be called a Shotokan kata.
Please understand that I am not critiquing the student’s kata on martial arts grounds per se, rather on what virtually all Shotokan people I have been familiar with through the years would consider Shotokan. At least from what they have said to me and hit me with upside the head!
Like it or not, a video is proof. I know that when somoene puts a video up it is kind of like “here hit me five times in the Liver then we can fight to prove who is better” haha and unlike Mccoy I have not characterized the student’s teacher as good or bad, not intentionally anyhow… but dammit Shotokan it aint!! unless I am really geting so old that in my generation, Shotokan has evolved into an art that looks like Kukishin Ryu for grandpas haha.
Look guys!! I don’t want to take a cheap shot really I don’t. But sometimes a video speaks volumes. I could also say the guy looks like a Kansas City Faggot doing Shotokan in Blazing Saddles… and it might not be far from the truth, but that is uncalled for so I would never say anything like that!! Sorry I still have visions of Milton Ice Skating down the ice with a bloody howl from the other thread… I am deranged today!
Think of it this way my friend: There are Buddhist traditions that actually believe in a permanent self after we are gone… but it is a central tenant of Buddhism that the self is impermanent. The idea of impermanence is central to Buddhism… if you can accept a self that lingers in Buddhism, then you can probably call this guy a practicioner of Shotokan. If so, so be it we have a difference of opinion, you are prolly right. But regardless, the video is proof of what some are saying is Shotokan karate.
Get your panties out of a knot junior… Jeez are you one of those guys who sticks his thimb up his ass and licks it to decide if it tastes good?
My comments are about the subject at hand. (picture a Jack Nicholson effigy telling you you can’t handle the truth please)… With that being said I respect your authority and judgement as a moderator, respect my point of view as well instead of crying.
Video is proof sometimes, and you know what? if you decide it isn’t in this case close the thread fuck nuts! I would respect that decision on your part… but the thread is open!
I am not here for the special Bullshido ring, nor to be popular with many of the half wits like Kung Fool who are part of the In crowd…You want popularity, or a real effort to root out bullshit?
BTW long before this site people were rooting out bullshit in the martial arts. Karate in particular, so my joining when I did should not be an issue fuck nuts… :5camoufla
Your comments are about the quality of the techniques that you saw on a video demonstrating shotokai. That is NOT the subject at hand. The subject, or claim by the OP, is that the material taught is fraudulent, or misleading. So, if Mr. Harada is claiming to teach the “real shotokan”, or that Mr. Harada can beat the crap out of 20 year olds, then we have something to go on. KSM has shown NO evidence to this, and quite frankly, your comments about the quality of the kata, though piss poor, have nothing to do with bullshido.
Sure, video is proof…proof of WHAT? Crap krotty? I did TKD for almost 20 years, I could show you videos of the latest bullshit TKD forms coming out of Kukkiwon, and believe me, that is real shitty stuff. But the WTF admits that it wants TKD to be sport oriented, and embraces the idea that it will appeal to kids. Is that bullshido? The point is that the video has NOTHING to do with the OP’s claim that Mr. Harada is practicing or doing bullshido, unless the OP can point to evidence of outrageous claims, which people on this forum are patiently waiting for.
This has nothing to do with popularity. It’s about asking for documented evidence, and then the OP spouting off unsubstantiated bullshit about how he has the REAL shotokan. Oh please! And you, sir, are feeding right into the OP’s delusions. In case you haven’t realized by now, most of the people on this board don’t give a rats ass about the REAL shotokan.
Who cares? You’re on this site now, and we’ve been waiting for KSM to give us meaningful stuff about BULLSHIDO, instead of his overblown, ego-inflated take on what Shotokan is, and why Shotokai is a poor imitation of shotokan, when we have no evidence that Harada ever made such claims. Your joining is not the issue - your appalling lack of understanding what this forum is about is turning into one.
Thank you for an intelligent response Weechey. You at least addressed my points and didn’t opine in an ad hominum attack. Kudos you have my respect, that and subway fare will get you on the subway… but hey its one thing you didn’t have before. Let me clarify something which is our apparent difference of opinion.
If somoene claims that Shotokai is another name for Shotokan (somoene did on this thread by the way) and somoene claims to therefore be teaching Shotokan and is not… that is misleading. To me it is.
If no one cares, I can accept that. If the moderator feels that video proof and the apparent similarity in the name is not designed to mislead then I can accept his decision… just not his caveats about my agenda and my supposed entree into Bullshido acceptance.
Crappy is different than misleading W… that is a difference to me.
But I want to apologize for one thing. I do feel that people were a little hard on the Klingon who started this thread; quick to judge and to condemn, quick to find fault and accuse the Romalin of having his own agenda, of critiszizing randomly, when in fact I felt as though the video established some credability. I never stated that I felt this way before but you beat it out of me. I just hate when people call somoene a troll, or otherwise for presenting something that is unpopular… that is alais my issue though. Peace
It would still be just an opinion if you could prove such an opinion came from not a “shotokan guy”, but a “shotokan expert” with broad experience within the shotokan community, though if such a person actually said such a thing, it might hold more weight, if and only if it can be shown such an opinion were objective and not with bias.
I’m always up for subway fare :5slick: Back to the matter…the person who linked Shotokai to Shotokan was not KSM, and so far we have no one claiming that Harada is claiming Shotokai is the real Shotokan. Whoever is misleading is so far not Harada, and that is the whole point.
Personally, I didn’t see the mod attacking you for your agenda…I’ve noticed a number of times on other threads the theme of the “old boys club”…i.e. you don’t agree w/ my thoughts, then you don’t belong". I’ve never found much credence to this, but I think that this has been brought up in the thread re: Legitimate Criticism of Bullshido as a website (sorry, don’t know how to link).
Agreed.
Quickly browsing through the KDS website, a lot of it looks like crap to me. Is it Bullshido? I don’t know, and I don’t really have the time to figure it out. KSM made the first post basically flaming an 80 yr old guy who might actually have legitimate credentials with nothing other than “his Shotokai is not as good as my Shotokan”. My read on the people giving KSM a hard time (or, IMO, holding him to a higher standard) is that they want KSM to do the research, investigate, and post evidence that makes sense and that can be substantiated. KSM’s response has been “I’m just throwing this out there - YOU guys go figure it out”…but aside from the fact that it’s intellectually lazy, irresponsible, and just plain annoying to other forum members here, that is also not the purpose of MABS, as themods here have been quick to point out (One of them even posted a clip from the README at the top of all the forums). KSM wants to badmouth an 80 y/o guy…then he should take responsibility for it, and at least do the initial legwork to get things going. Forum members here had no problem bringing to light the fraudulent claims of a certain septagenarian Keichu Do founder, who had a fake Ph.D., claimed his art to be the “official martial art of Louisiana”, as well as the “original American martial art”. The OP in that thread did his homework, and presented the evidence in a logical, coherent fashion.
Wow, so all of this cryiing and you agree with my assessment.
I’m junior but you resort to name calling in MABS. Yes, little boy it is okay we all go through the " I can’t be wrong phases.
Let’s get it right:
You:
Like it or not, a video is proof.
Video is proof sometimes, and you know what? if you decide it isn’t in this case close the thread fuck nuts! I would respect that decision on your part… but the thread is open!
Me:
Were they beginners? Were those all of his students? What context are the videos from?Basic questions that should’ve been asked before calling someone bullshido.
Please learn how to read. Video isn’t complete proof of bullshido.
Hmmm I held my line, you waffled, end of story.
Now, I’m the fucknut. Whatever. You want to critique the Karate, do it with facts and research. Not with name calling which KSM and now you have resorted to in defense of no evidence.
Yeah it sounds pretty stupid when I say something like fucknut doesn’t it? I spoke to you that way to point out how stupid an ad hominum (attack on the person) is when somoene makes a point about a member’s post. You started by characterizing me remember that… I responded in kind. Because I thought the video constituted some proof you mischaracterized me. Though thank you for not calling me a troll at least.
I am referring to you specifically BTW. You are the mod yes? Every other comment I recieved on this thread was related to my opinion about the video, as it should be.
Why do you act like I am giving you a cheap shot that you have to take when I told you I never disrespected your mod authority dude? it is good to see you know that since I stated it unequivically.
I never waffled on anything. The thread starter asked you a question that I also asked because (as another poster stated) I percieve a history of threads here becoming popularity contests. You guys have the potential to be better than that… Look at the wonderful article on Dilman for example. If a member can do first rate work like that it says something about the community.
Frankly I am sure you are a great mod but you should not have made the comments you made about me… personally I don’t care but it sucks as far as encouraging people to honestly debate an issue. In the future respond to the opinion, not the poster. peace.
Yeah it sounds pretty stupid when I say something like fucknut doesn’t it? I spoke to you that way to point out how stupid an ad hominum (attack on the person) is when somoene makes a point about a member’s post. You started by characterizing me remember that… I responded in kind. Because I thought the video constituted some proof you mischaracterized me. Though thank you for not calling me a troll at least
I am referring to you specifically BTW. You are the mod yes? Every other comment I recieved on this thread was related to my opinion about the video, as it should be.
Why do you act like I am giving you a cheap shot that you have to take when I told you I never disrespected your mod authority dude? it is good to see you know that since I stated it unequivically.
I never waffled on anything. The thread starter asked you a question that I also asked because (as another poster stated) I percieve a history of threads here becoming popularity contests. You guys have the potential to be better than that… Look at the wonderful article on Dilman for example. If a member can do first rate work like that it says something about the community.
Frankly I am sure you are a great mod but you should not have made the comments you made about me… personally I don’t care but it sucks as far as encouraging people to honestly debate an issue. In the future respond to the opinion, not the poster. peace.
Characterized you as what not understanding? Yep that’s true.
The thread starter didn’t ask me anything he made statements and opinions. Then stated them as facts.
You waffled on the video assertion. I said it isn’t complete proof you agreed after all of your whining.
4)Not a Mod.
Your start date becomes an issue because you haven’t noticed the good that comes out of threads that are steered right. You and KSM are steering it in the wrong direction.
I’m not a mod.
I never called you a name until, little boy.
Ad hominem point it out. Otherwise I’m going to assume you meant red herring. I didn’t attack you I said read the thread.
What comments are you crying about? Notice I addressed no post to you with insults.
That is what you did.
Yet, here you are still trying to turn this thread into an attack on your person. Point out where I called you a name, insulted your intelligence, or made an Ad hominem attack.
Why would I respond to anything anyone said? My comment was about the video and specifically something I know about… my experience interacting with other Shotokan people, most of whom were with the JKA I think (it has been a while).
I don’t have any agenda, I was and still am simply relating that which I could contribute to the thread.