Self-Taught Vs. Untrained

Hypothetical question. (Came to mind after reading some posts on “online masters.”)

It is widely accepted that learning from books and/or the internet is no substitute for actual instruction. Books/internet will not let you understand underlying principles of the techniques, nor will it tell you what you’re doing wrong. Without these two things, it could possibly be very easy to hurt yourself.

The question I’m getting at: if random untrained person A spent 3 years learning and practicing striking, grappling, whatever, from books and online resources, would they have a better chance at beating random untrained person B? For the sake of argument, lets assume this is a NHB match, not the uber street where everyone can kill you just by thinking about it. So both A and B untrained formally, with A being “self-taught.”

Personally, I think that if A doesn’t do anything stupid, like break his hand throwing a cross at the back of B’s head, A has a slightly better chance of winning.

What do you guys think?

(Sorry if this has been talked of before, but I am not sure how to search for an entire question.)

You really won’t be much better than someone that doesn’t know anything. In fact, due to the fact that you are trying to learn martial arts from the internet, you’re probably a complete wimp, and the average person would beat the crap out of you.

Go train goddamnit, we shouldn’t have to have this discussion on BULLSHIDO.net

That depends. Would random untrained person A be able to workout with a partner?

If it’s just solitary training then Deadpan is correct. If person A was able to try their self taught techniques on a partner, then A would have a slightly better chance.

“Go train goddamnit, we shouldn’t have to have this discussion on BULLSHIDO.net

…I wasn’t refering to myself. Like I said, hypothetical.

either way, there’s no reason to talk about it. We have a hard enough time cleaning up shit taught in martial arts schools around the world, we don’t need to be pandering to “self-trainer” cowardly wannabes.

I’m not trying to condone it. That’s why I posted this in General BS and not Bullshido. If you want, I can add a large disclaimer saying:

“DON’T TRAIN ONLINE OR ELSE YOU’RE A WANNABE FAGGOT”

I was thinking about it, and thought it could be entertaining (funny) to watch, so I decided to ask what people thought. I’m sorry if I’ve caused more problems or offended you.

Too many variables to determine, but what you are really asking is:

“Is there ANY benefit to self training?”

Answer is: NO

If Person A spends 3 years self training, would he have an edge over a cheeto-eating couch potato? Sure, but that’s mainly due to the conditioning he would have acquired, not technique.

If Person A spends 3 years self training would he have an edge over Person B who gets into drunken brawls every Thursday night for three years? NO.

Self training can make you worse, not better. If A is trying to put on a deadly new grappling move he’s seen on video, but doesn’t have a delivery system to do so, then person B will merrily beat the shit out of him while he keeps trying to grab his arm.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Straight answer to a really dumb question. Aesop, I apologize for dissing you in the other thread now.

Self-training helps sometimes. Look at Lu.

Uh, wouldn’t conditioning count as a benefit?

Basically, self-training is barely useful at all because you won’t even know what a good way to train is or if you’re doing anything right.

He could get better benefits from training in Tae Bo then.

You guys are wrong. I can say that because I’ve done both. I’ve trained in dojos, clubs and in sports – and I’ve self-trained by myself and with partners. In all honesty, I will always value my self-training more because it wasn’t handed to me – I had to learn things the hard way and experiment until I got it right. I wasn’t spoon fed. I made myself work harder than most people that I saw in dojos even knew how. I made outlines, kept logs, did my own research, and I put in a lot of hours and sweat. I also wasn’t limited by the curriculum of some high school teacher who wanted to wear white pajamas and force children to bow to him as his night job.

I didn’t decide to self-train because I “didn’t have the athleticism or toughness” required to be a fat-ass pimply black belt like the ones everybody made fun of at school and in the neighborhood. I did it because I visited every dojo in town back then and found them all to be … kind of lame. There weren’t any kids at those schools who I couldn’t beat. They had nothing to offer me there. There are a few good gyms here nowadays and I know the people who teach there. I visit. One of them is even a guy I self-trained with as a kid in the neighborhood. Imagine that. I also went to his school and taught there while I was in college.

I’m finally joining the new BJJ/JKD gym this spring to learn formally. I’m kind of glad I’ll finally have rank but that’s not why I am doing it. I love the martial arts for the skills involved – not the rank or the stupid bullshit superiority complex that guys who have been training six months to a year tend to have. You know, older guys don’t pick on newbs that much – it’s the guys looking for someone newer than them to take the heat off of themselves (because they were the newb before you came along) who do that. Anyway, I train because I love it. If I sucked at it then I’d have quit long ago. I’d be a bowler or something.

Most standard dojo kids just half-ass it in the back of some 20-30 people class and get a belt for doing a couple of kata they cram for that weekend. Their sparring consists of strapping on so many pads they can barely stand up and tapping another skinny dude with their foot ten times before that skinny dude can tap them ten times. We didn’t have BJJ gyms here when I was a kid. I had to train myself if I was going to get anything good out of it. Maybe I am an anamoly … I’ve honestly never met anyone else who trained on their own so I don’t know. All the guys I trained with were going to one dojo or another. I was the only one who wasn’t. Anyway, some guy thinking he’s a badass because he spent five years “point sparring” and/or hitting focus pads and yelling “Kia!” in some black belt factory is not someone I think is superior to an untrained fighter – let alone someone with the initiative and discipline to train on their own. I feel the same way about guys hitting focus pads in a Muay Thai gym – same McDojo, new name. You guys are wrong to say that self-training is never worth anything. In fact, anyone who doesn’t self-train outside of class most likely sucks.

I say you put your theory to the test instead of whining about it on here. Go find a guy about your size who has spent a lot of time self-training and ask him to a match with rules that don’t favor your style. See if you are really that much better. Then come here and write about that instead of posting a bunch of baby talk.

There are some self-trained guys who have done pretty well for themselves: Evan Tanner (29-3-0) was self-trained when he competed in the UFC. Jack Dempsey, Jake LaMotta, Bob Fitzsimmons (first triple world champ), Alan Bosworth (Olympics), and Henry Collins (Olympics) are/were all self-trained boxers.

Miyamoto Musashi said this about self-training:

“When I had passed the age of thirty and reflected on my experiences, I realized that I had not been victorious because of consummate attainment of martial arts. Perhaps it was because I had an inherent skill for the science and never deviated from natural principles. It may also have been due to the shortcomings in the martial arts of other schools. In any case, I subsequently practiced day and night in order to attain an even deeper principle, and spontaneously came upon the science of martial arts. I was about fifty years old at that time. Since then I have passed the time with no science into which to inquire. Trusting in the advantage of military science, as I turn it into the sciences of all arts and skills, I have no teacher in anything.”

Musashi credited his natural ability for hs victories. He says, maybe the other guys just trained in crappy McDojos. He says he trained day and night (after any standard dojo was closed) and figured out the right way to do things on his own. Interesting. He, like me, is saying that you guys are wrong. Hmh. Maybe it’s just because I was a natural, agile and fast, and had an IQ of 135 by the 10th grade … maybe I’m not the norm … but there are plenty of other people who figured this stuff out on their own. The concepts aren’t really all that hard if you can THINK FOR YOURSELF. If people can learn to play guitar on their own (they do) then people can learn to box on their own (they do). It’s dedication that makes the difference.

Evan Tanner is self-trained and he can kick your ass. Go tell him he’s no better than an untrained fighter. Go tell the guys who invented the martial arts that you study that they suck – because they came up with that stuff on their own. You guys are wrong. Sorry.

p.s. Your entire mom. All of it.

You can learn from the internet and books, but only if you are also training. It’s supplemental only. It’s how I ‘train’ when I can’t do the real thing.

9chambers is t3h c0rr3c7

og course, if you have a good school nearby, self training would be stupid. but if you only find tkd mcdojos, self training is better than nothing.

however, a self trained person has to train and test more intensively than someone who learns a real martial art. and it is always best to have some basics in a “normal” martial art - you can do boxing and judo almost everywhere, and when you’re halfway good, go from there.

Didn’t Evan Tanner learn teh grapple from videos?

I don’t see how nine chambers can be right.

How can it be benficial to learn a bunch of shit techniques, where only some of them actually work?

Or to not have a coach to tell you your starting to drop your right hand on the crosses and its looking a bit sloppy?

Maybe it’s just because I was a natural, agile and fast, and had an IQ of 135 by the 10th grade

I just reread your post and I’m going to assume you were just taking the piss now.
Not because I dont believe you but because you claim that makes you th3 d34dly.

That’s what I always hear, but I’m not sure it’s the whole truth… Meh, whatever.

Jekyll,

Some guys learn not to drop their hand because they got hit when they did that last time. It’s not that hard to figure out … the stove is hot, don’t touch it. Some guys pay attention and ask themselves why this and why that … other guys just punch and kick. Put them in the ring and the guy who can think for himself will improve whether he wins or loses. The other guy won’t.

I’m not saying being smart makes you deadly. Bill Gates isn’t in the UFC. I’m just saying that martial arts is just another skill (there are people do well in business, music, and various sports by self-training) and if you are methodical and thorough enough and able to pick up details … then you’ll learn. Being smart helps. If you can’t do those things then you won’t learn whether you are in class or not. Being skilled is about being smart. It’s about education but also about learning to think on your feet.

Maybe if you have a good coach in your corner a dumb guy can learn … but how many dojos even have instructors who coach every student during every sparring session? If it’s a small class you’ll get more attention and that’s the way to go… but the best teachers have a lot of students … so you have to pay big money for their time. Maybe even train one on one if you can afford it. If you find a good teacher be thankful. They don’t grow on trees.

If you can get a personal coach … then crap … you’ve got gold. Not everybody has that.

>How can it be benficial to learn a bunch of
>shit techniques, where only some of them
>actually work?

How does that not describe most traditional dojos? :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway, I don’t mean to undermine the educational system here. The best way to learn is from a qualified expert. It’s the fastest way anyway. Still, nobody who can’t learn on their own is going to go very far in spite of who does or doesn’t train them. Sharpen your mind in the best ways you have at your disposal. That’s what I did. If the BJJ gym was here in the 80s I’d have joined it.

Anyway, go to class and be thankful you have a place to learn. Just don’t be so cocky as to think that going to class is all you’ll ever need. Educate yourself too.

I’ll never look down on a guy for being hungry enough to make his own meal.

Now you’re silly. 2 really famous people aren’t really statistically significant.

I still think it’s vital to utilize a partner in your self-training. For striking & kicking not so much, but how are your going to know how effective your grappling, submission, throwing/takedown techniques are if you have no one to try them out on?