Recommendable Russian DVD training set in unarmed combat and close-quarters combat.

http://www.evrikafilm.ru/~desc/188/index.html

This link is to a Russian website. It is to the first DVD of a three DVD set (each one sold separately). I actually had to purchase the DVD set through an intermediary Russian bookstore as a special order.

Having watched it, I can recommend it. The training video is free of extraneous discussion. The purpose of the training DVDs is instruction, and that is what is shown. The three DVDs are professionally filmed and edited.

The three volume set starts off with the basics of physical movement, combative engagement distance, balance, and elementary techniques. The second DVD is about weapons, knife, knife defense, and defense against the gun. Volume three is more advanced close-quarters combat. Some of the gun play techniques reflect very gymnastic gun methods, such as dropping to the ground and rolling to get out of the opponents line of fire while retaining the opponent in your own sights. This last section of DVD 3 reflects the video content of a method I saw on a video from the early-post Soviet MVD training center. Comparing the two videos, the first one from 20 years ago, the close-quarters gun method tracks with some of the on-line biography of the author.

Whats the fighting style like? Is it comparable to any system or techs? Although i dont have any interest anymore of learning combatives or similar i do have have an interest in seeing these forms of system and how they train.

Kravbizarre, it is a fairly straight forward mix: The typical police jiu-jitsu (ju jutsu), some boxing method, military-style knife fighting, and then the advanced tuck-roll-gun play. The instructor is Valery Kryuchkov. His Russian web page: http://vk.com/krjuchkovvn.

The translated text of the Russian text for the DVD advertisement references an association with A.A. Kadochnikov, which may create some doubt in many readers. However, Kadochnikov did teach his method to some Soviet troops. He was a professor at a college for military engineers. There was an experimental program to see if his method would work for bulk instruction, but it was terminated because the method was too complex for troop unit instruction. However, that does not mean elements of the method are not valid. Also, with more individualized instruction it may be that a narrow percentage of students might actually be high-end, proficient combatants with the method, but the numbers could be expected to be small in overall percentages.

This video opens up with period film of when the experimental Kadochnikov program was taught for a short time at the military engineer college before the collapse of the Soviet Union: http://vk.com/video21823691_162962381?list=25bd80fc44fca8706c
What the Kadochnikov system has turned into after commercialization, that is for other people to discuss. I have no knowledge of current training.

So, if Valery Kryuchkov is one of A.A. Kadochnikov’s students, it would explain some of his fluidity of motion. His conventional techniques reflect conventional military and security service training, but he is very flexible and it shows right under the surface.

There are some pdf scans of Soviet-period training manuals on the net. The early manuals reflect police jiu-jitsu, boxing, and wrestling. Later manuals reflect the introduction of karate-methods, from the influence North Koreans. I actually have a MPEG copy of the North Korean military karate forms taught to the East Germans in the mid-1980s. I’m an Asian historian by training 30 years ago, and do a lot of searching for primary source documents. You can find them on the net if you narrow the right search words and use Google translate to search in the native (national) language. Strictly English language searches are most often not complete.

Here is a link to a You Tube video reflecting Soviet (and then early-Russian) hand-to-hand combat training:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gb84ieSTfU&index=9&list=PLvU1B-tZFG5XJrVH-tywE3Jqv2UOVwEBm
It is all very straight forward and nothing fancy, just get the job done and move on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS93djtHQMU This link is probably MVD training. It was filmed in the early-post Soviet Union period (1990s), and the instructors come out of the Soviet system. And, again, it is not fancy. It is straight forward get the job done and move on training. It looks like the material from the book Система самбо. Боевое искусство
Автор: Харлампиев А.А.
Издательство: М.: Советский спорт
Год издания: 1995
Страницы: 96
ISBN 5-85009-430-Х
It is a reprint of a book originally published around 1949? It’s all about how to turn someone else into a human pretzel.

This is a link to the 1985 training manual: http://www.twirpx.com/file/473235/ The search term I used was “рукопашный бой 1985.”

I hope that sets you on your journey appropriately. It’s a wonderful study.

It looks fairly terrible to be honest. Apart from the odd sambo throw its slow, compliant drills, lunge punches and weird looks kicks. And I’m not sure what the amateur gymnastics is all about.

It looks like an early Systema.

Yes, the video of the experimental program looks like early Systema.

[QUOTE=Kovacs;2880309]It looks fairly terrible to be honest. Apart from the odd sambo throw its slow, compliant drills, lunge punches and weird looks kicks. And I’m not sure what the amateur gymnastics is all about.

It looks like an early Systema.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the experimental program looks like early Systema. It was reportedly terminated because of the complexity of the method, which I tried to reference in my note. The three DVD training set I mentioned is a lot more conventional, direct, and violent. And, if you go through the two You Tube videos of the airborne hand-to-hand training and the (probable) MVD (internal security troop) training, they reflect more direct and conventional method. The links were provided to show a comparison for contrast and context.

Also, troop training often looks “by the numbers.” Step one, step two, step three… And, repeat. The pattern training communicates technique without needless injury. A trainer who has 120 soldiers to get through a structured program will approach training differently than someone at a sports club. It is the nature of organizational life to replicate knowledge, skill, and ability for the work role to the benefit and sustainability of the organization, where as individuals volunteering into a training program can have more variance of experience.

I read a book by a Soviet KGB defector in the early-1980s. He described his experiences. It was an interesting read, because when it came to gun play, hand-to-hand, and other spy skills, as an analyst he got almost nothing. He said that type of training was for a few work units, such as their security or direct action elements. From the outside, and from popular culture, we’d think every KGB person was a walking threat. At the time, I disbelieved it, thinking the writing was disinformation. He did say that if someone wanted to practice karate, there was a karate club. However, looking at how organizations work, today I can see he was telling the truth. Organizations focus on the work role.

The aliveness in training the readers of Bullshido discuss may be at the sports club-level. Where, a military trainer trying to get 120 people through structured instruction to standard will probably use the by-the-numbers method.

Compliant and by-the-numbers training is still poor training wether it’s for the military or the public. To this day it’s never produced a good fighting art and it’s one of the reasons why military combatives are generally so bad.

Military personel that excel at fighting either train combat sports in their spare time or with styles that’s endorsed or encouraged by their military, Sambo for Russia, boxing for Britain, wrestling in the States etc.

Military combatives are fine for confidence building or to fill in a PT session but they make terrible martial arts, even in a military context.

I like the part where the guy demonstrates how to apply bat’leth techniques to a pair of antlers.

[QUOTE=Permalost;2880341]I like the part where the guy demonstrates how to apply bat’leth techniques to a pair of antlers.[/QUOTE]

Can we all get a gif or a link to said demonstration?

I outright refuse to dig through hours of Russian martial arts’ bullshit… the amount of Systema material I have gone over is embarrassing. … never again.

EDIT

OOO OO!!! Oh hey hey hey.

If you find any of the (1) fat wave riding energy transfer via back to attacker via looney tunes pimp slap like this, (2)trenching tool or (3)combat shovel techniques in this guy’s bit I would love to check them out too

edit 2

I meant this youtube link … sorry

[QUOTE=BackFistMonkey;2880344]Can we all get a gif or a link to said demonstration? [/QUOTE]

This video @ 40 seconds:
http://vk.com/video21823691_162962381?list=25bd80fc44fca8706c

[QUOTE=Permalost;2880346]This video @ 40 seconds:
http://vk.com/video21823691_162962381?list=25bd80fc44fca8706c[/QUOTE]

It’s like Christmas already!

Well, I’m sorry for having mentioned Kadochnikov. I was afraid it would derail the conversation when I mentioned it. Mentioning Kadochnikov was trying to get ahead of questions, should someone have translated some of the DVD sales page.

What I see in the Valery Kryuchkov DVDs is not Systema… Just to clarify and try and get back on track.

Unfortunately, after independence, when Kadochnikov commercialized and advertised his method, Systema (or its cousins) is a majority of what people think of when they think Russia or the Soviet Union. Because of advertising over the past 20 years through the power of the internet, a minor thing has become the major thing and unfortunately gotten in the way of easily discussing elements of the history of state (government) training.

It’s like the difference between historical karate and the McDojos often discussed on Bullshido. Just mention karate and people’s minds run to different places based upon their own understanding and they may not even have a grasp that Karate was chosen to be the combat method taught at the Imperial Japanese Army Nakano spy school. But, what it has turned in to at strip malls may be something completely different. We can only go with our understanding, which is natural, until we come in contact with new information – which is hopefully valid information within its correct context. (Although, we do have to filter for distortions. It happens in every area of study, not just martial arts history.)

Heheha. The topic? I guess I found a good DVD set and started rambling. :slight_smile:

I don’t know or care who Kadochinikov is. He doesn’t stop the links shown being a terrible martial art. They’re fun for some historical or esoteric interest but that’s about it.

[QUOTE=mrtnira;2880352]Heheha. The topic? I guess I found a good DVD set and started rambling. :-)[/QUOTE]

Nothing wrong with that. What other bits of awesome tickled your fancy in this DVD set?

[QUOTE=BackFistMonkey;2880344]Can we all get a gif or a link to said demonstration?

If you find any of the (1) fat wave riding energy transfer via back to attacker via looney tunes pimp slap like this, (2)trenching tool or (3)combat shovel techniques in this guy’s bit I would love to check them out too

edit 2

I meant this youtube link … sorry[/QUOTE]

I found a video of Homer Simpson doing Systema: [video]https://youtu.be/RQXzOE12xuM[/video]

I think historical stuff like this is interesting, but there’s just so many Russian videos where the feeder just kinda falls to the ground for almost no reason. It always makes me wonder if the hardened military guts in the audience believe in what the teacher is showing. I think systema (or whatever you call what’s happening here) could become something much more workable if they did away with the fall-at-the-slightest-stimulus approach. The approach is supposed to revolve around spontaneous response to changing stimuli yet they follow a script of failure quite often.

I’ve never me anyone in the forces of several countries who takes military combatives seriously, well okay you may get the odd individual who thinks it makes him Jason Bourne but as soon as you apply resisting partners, body armour, a helmet, a weapon, webbing or a rig, ranged combat and actually put them in a warzone it all falls apart.

Kovacs, you are right. In the 20th century we moved rapidly away from personal combat, and the most effective use of personal combat training for troop units is for physical conditioning and warrior spirit (aggression, and physical and emotional confidence in confrontation). Even during the Second World War, a lot of Allied combatives training manuals looked like modified self-defense training. After the Korean War, there was one U.S. Army manual that included the garrote and lots of knife work. It was published in 1954, and was the by-product of the trench warfare that occurred at the end of the Korean War, when the 38th parallel stabilized. Soviet manuals included a lot of knife work and crippling blows, as did Chinese manuals.

The American manuals from the 1960s looked like modified karate manuals, because karate was popular in the 1960s. The training reflects the understanding of the era. In the 1970s, there was a move away from combatives in the Army. Close combat was supposed to be “instinctive,” where by our human nature we know how to defend ourselves, and in the European theater with tactical nukes as part of the response option, the U.S. Army wasn’t too interested in wasting time in training soldiers to throw each other around. In the 1980s, close-quarters combat started to make a comeback for practical reasons of physical fitness, endurance, and warrior spirit. Then came the Krav Maga craze, and then MMA, and then BJJ, etc. The emphasis of training type changes with the spirit of the age.

When we look at special units in the Soviet Union, that may not apply. I am not a fully vested Soviet expert, but I have been doing homework on Russian history periodically over the past 40 years (roughly). If you have better knowledge, please pitch into the conversation.

It appears from available material that I have been able to locate that special units emphasized unarmed and close-quarters combat for very specific reasons – the utility of hand-to-hand in a raid. Many Soviet and East German airborne and reconnaissance units had missions to seize and hold, or to disrupt, key facilities and key features (bridges, for example) during an expected Soviet bloc (WARSAW Pact) offensive westward to the English Channel. Allied missile units were also targets. To overcome sentries and get inside the compounds before discovery would be necessary to be successful. The mission shaped the training plan.

The average Red Army soldier probably did physical training like any other soldier, with some disappreciation and annoyance of attitude. And, whatever close-quarters and self-defense training they did, it was probably done like every other soldier, by the numbers for the duration of that training evolution, and then on to the next training station, or out to the motor pool to do maintenance on the vehicles they drove, or to the barracks to do cleaning, etc. This was an army of largely conscripts who really did drink a lot when they could and were often bored. We read a book on something and often lack the context of the daily life experienced by the common man. Only a few guys would really take to the training, just like Kovacs referenced. It is the human factor kicking in.

https://youtu.be/kLSZi7KXgNM?t=89 This video is from the Arrow System You Tube channel. I had to dig for one that was overtly useful. The videos on the channel are not like the three DVDs I recommended earlier. The videos on the You Tube channel tend to be from seminars, and with seminars comes a lot of talking. The training DVDs were much more to the point – technique, demonstration, display. Seminars come with talking, and I have to wade through a lot of talking to get to 45 seconds of displayed technique.

This You Tube video starts at about one and a half minutes into the six minute instructional. Valery Kryuchkov demonstrates a defense against a gun, and it is an interesting one. Dropping down and ducking to his left, he moves in rapidly. It’s an interesting technique. He uses geometry in the movements, not just a football or soccer style move of shifting the body as one piece. He first demonstrates it from the side, and then he then moves and replicates the movement as if the viewer is going to receive the bullet. It was a useful change of position, to see it from the side, and then from the position of someone at the barrel of the gun.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, 25 years ago, a lot of security personnel were caught between working for the mob, or moon lighting for private security companies, or doing other sideline work for extra cash. Poverty was everywhere. Some security personnel hired themselves out as instructors. One group put their skills on a video (VHS,…) and sold it inside Russia. I got a copy of it from a book seller in St. Petersburg. The gun play and self-defense method was demonstrated by men who were either retired security service members or men who were active security men renting out their skills. Their method looked a lot like this guy Valery Kryuchkov.

But again, from an earlier post, there will be one kind of training for the larger body of regular members, and other training – unique and more intense – will be for members of smaller special units that require that extra training because of mission. Mission really does shape the training plan. Nothing is really equal in any service.

If I said I was in the Army, many people (but not all people) would assume some level of general skill – fighting, ambush, guns, first aid, etc. But, what if I was a cook? Cooks are very necessary in any service, but they get training in running vital food services. That is a very different world than someone who has a year of special operations training before their first overseas deployment on a Special Forces team. By extension, I’ve grown careful not to assume all training is the same. Work role is a big factor in what training people get. Also, the era – when an army is during a period of improvement, or its peak, or in its decline, and when it is at the bottom, each of these separate phases of organizational life will be a factor in the content and quality of training.

That being said, Valery Kryuchkov appears consistent with the video done by those security service personnel in Russia after the collapse 25 years ago. It reflects specialist skills, not standard skills. I would be surprised if more than 250 people trained in this method at any one time.

Very informative mrtnira

I agree also that the nature of the mission and or unit alters the training. I dont know how western spec ops train in hand to hand but if i had to guess id say take downs and using the knife as a weapon. These units generally get training in anything that would be beneficial to them whilst Being behind enemy lines.

If they are doing infiltration then knife and takedowns sound more practical other forms of combat would be profficiency in firearms and explosives.

Ive seen an old us army manual i think from the 90s. Looked like basic muay thai. Roundhouse, inner thigh kicks, low leg kicks, elbows ect. Saw a video recently on their (current?) program and it looked more like mma.