Philando Castile Shooting Verdict

Martial Arts Training Forums The Armory: Weapons, Military, LEO, and Self Defen
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I am posting this because it brings up interesting questions about how to handle yourself if you are carrying a concealed (or otherwise) handgun, and have a encounter with the police.

The officer was found not guilty of manslaughter and a couple of other charges, but was released/fired from the agency.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/20/us/philando-castile-shooting-dashcam/index.html

I haven’t watched the video, as I am not really up for debating the “righteousness” of the shooting.

So, whenever I get pulled over by the police (driving), whether I’m carrying a firearm or not:
1.) If it’s night-time, I turn off the motor, I reach up with one hand and turn on the interior lights. My other hand is on the steering wheel. After the light is on, I put that hand back on the wheel. I do not look for my registration, pull out my wallet, etc.
2.) I don’t roll down the window if it’s up. Basically, I don’t’ make any furtive looking movements.
3.) I wait for the officer/deputy/agent to give me instructions (roll down the window, for example).
4.) When/if they ask for ID, etc., I tell them where it is, and ask if it’s OK to reach. I also will tell them if I am carrying a knife or firearm, and where it, they are located before I reach for anything.
5.) I don’t argue with cops about tickets (haven’t gotten one in decades, though). I have been pulled over by the USBP, though, since I moved up here.

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When do you tell them that you pay their salary and to take that bass out of their voice when they are talking to you?

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[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2937029]When do you tell them that you pay their salary and to take that bass out of their voice when they are talking to you?[/QUOTE]

I’ve only had a couple of Canadian Border Protection cops pull that one on me. I just do what they want…

4

I remember watching this video and I came to a simple conclusion. NEVER tell a cop you have a gun in the car, unless they ask.

There are other videos of people legally carrying who tell cops they’re carrying, and it varies. Some cops are cool, some cops lose their motherfucking minds (like this cop). Race appears to be a factor in some cases, but in general, I no longer see the need to inform a police officer during a stop that you have ANYTHING in the car, until such time as they start questioning.

Even then, know your rights…cops generally DO NOT have any right to know what you have in the car, if it’s being legally carried. Let them find it on their own, and then when you’re able to produce legal documentation, do so.

This is always your right…what’s in my car is my own business, until such time as a law enforcement officer decides to start intruding into my business. And even at that stage, the cop has no right to do shit until they suspect a crime is in progress, at which point I better comply. But your first and most important right is to remain silent.

If police start to search your vehicle, and you have a licensed weapon in the car legally…inform them only after they begin a search. They don’t need to know shit beforehand, because who knows what kind of cop you’ve drawn from the lottery.

Otherwise, all it takes is the unlucky draw of one anxiety-ridden shit-for-brains like this cop to pull his service weapon, shoot you dead for no reason, and then be cleared of all charges because he was scared.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, like informing a road cop that you have a gun on you. I’m guessing that 99% of the time, they simply don’t need to know.

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[QUOTE=BKR;2937026]
So, whenever I get pulled over by the police (driving), whether I’m carrying a firearm or not:
1.) If it’s night-time, I turn off the motor, I reach up with one hand and turn on the interior lights. My other hand is on the steering wheel. After the light is on, I put that hand back on the wheel. I do not look for my registration, pull out my wallet, etc.
2.) I don’t roll down the window if it’s up. Basically, I don’t’ make any furtive looking movements.
3.) I wait for the officer/deputy/agent to give me instructions (roll down the window, for example).
4.) When/if they ask for ID, etc., I tell them where it is, and ask if it’s OK to reach. I also will tell them if I am carrying a knife or firearm, and where it, they are located before I reach for anything.
5.) I don’t argue with cops about tickets (haven’t gotten one in decades, though). I have been pulled over by the USBP, though, since I moved up here.[/QUOTE]

  1. That is one I had not thought of nor taught. I am sure they appreciate that.
  2. Rolling down your window looks a whole lot like reaching for a weapon.
  3. Yep. The police do not like it when you try to “help”. Just chill the officer will let you know what to do.
  4. Don’t make the officer ask for or find a weapon on their own. They do not like that.
  5. Your day in court is when to argue your case.

They really should teach this stuff (and taxes) in high school.

Your life is literally in the hands of the LEO you are interacting with and some, I assume, are good people. So why take chances?

[QUOTE=Pship Destroyer;2937041]I did not grow up poor and I have never had my rights violated by the police[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah I can tell.

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[QUOTE=Pship Destroyer;2937041]I did not grow up poor and I have never had my rights violated by the police[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah I can tell.

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I wouldn’t tell cops I am carrying. I would hand them my concealed carry permit with my license.

“I’ve got a GUN!” Is much different than, “Here’s my concealed carry permit.”

As far as a traffic stop unless it’s raining I roll all my windows down. And have my license ready for them when they come up to the window. I don’t get my registration until asked.

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[QUOTE=BackFistMonkey;2937042]1) That is one I had not thought of nor taught. I am sure they appreciate that.
2) Rolling down your window looks a whole lot like reaching for a weapon.
3) Yep. The police do not like it when you try to “help”. Just chill the officer will let you know what to do.
4) Don’t make the officer ask for or find a weapon on their own. They do not like that.
5) Your day in court is when to argue your case.

They really should teach this stuff (and taxes) in high school.

Your life is literally in the hands of the LEO you are interacting with and some, I assume, are good people. So why take chances?

Oh yeah I can tell.[/QUOTE]
Who the fuck still has non-power windows? Pushing a button doesn’t take much.

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[QUOTE=Pship Destroyer;2937041]I remember watching this video and I came to a simple conclusion. NEVER tell a cop you have a gun in the car, unless they ask.

There are other videos of people legally carrying who tell cops they’re carrying, and it varies. Some cops are cool, some cops lose their motherfucking minds (like this cop). Race appears to be a factor in some cases, but in general, I no longer see the need to inform a police officer during a stop that you have ANYTHING in the car, until such time as they start questioning.

Even then, know your rights…cops generally DO NOT have any right to know what you have in the car, if it’s being legally carried. Let them find it on their own, and then when you’re able to produce legal documentation, do so.

This is always your right…what’s in my car is my own business, until such time as a law enforcement officer decides to start intruding into my business. And even at that stage, the cop has no right to do shit until they suspect a crime is in progress, at which point I better comply. But your first and most important right is to remain silent.

If police start to search your vehicle, and you have a licensed weapon in the car legally…inform them only after they begin a search. They don’t need to know shit beforehand, because who knows what kind of cop you’ve drawn from the lottery.

Otherwise, all it takes is the unlucky draw of one anxiety-ridden shit-for-brains like this cop to pull his service weapon, shoot you dead for no reason, and then be cleared of all charges because he was scared.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, like informing a road cop that you have a gun on you. I’m guessing that 99% of the time, they simply don’t need to know.[/QUOTE]

You need to check your individual state statutes. Below is presented as guidance for further research.
https://www.usacarry.com/duty-to-inform-laws/

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[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2937046]Who the fuck still has non-power windows? Pushing a button doesn’t take much.[/QUOTE]

1981 Toyota 4WD Truck in the driveway…still runs and is street legal.

I’d be more likely to roll the window down during daylight hours…

11

[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2937045]I wouldn’t tell cops I am carrying. I would hand them my concealed carry permit with my license.

“I’ve got a GUN!” Is much different than, “Here’s my concealed carry permit.”

As far as a traffic stop unless it’s raining I roll all my windows down. And have my license ready for them when they come up to the window. I don’t get my registration until asked.[/QUOTE]

After this incident, I’m just of the opinion the safest time to inform a cop that I have a weapon is when they ask, AFTER I’ve handed them my license/permit, and AFTER the cop appears to be in control of the situation.

99/100 times you’re gonna get pulled over, the cop will do their thing, and let you go nary the wiser that you were packing a hand cannon.

Cops are trained to go to work the moment they know somebody is armed…but unless they decide you’re worthy of a search, your rights are pretty standard (per USSC): You don’t need to cooperate with ANY search. In fact other than obeying commands, you don’t even have to speak to an officer pulling you over.

That’s the part of this incident we didn’t see on video…how exactly that played out. I think the jury gave the officer the benefit of the doubt that however it occurred, it was sudden and jarring and caused him to panic.

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One thing to consider is you may think you know why the cop pulled you over, but you may be wrong.

Onc scenario is that your vehicle (and/or you) look like a suspect person/vehicle involved in a crime. That crime may have been a felony, or somebody with a felony warrant, maybe even with a officer safety warning involved.

So the cop(s) may be more keyed up than usual. Of course, if several cars pull up and they start yelling for you to show your hand, etc., that’s a good clue.

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[QUOTE=BKR;2937047]You need to check your individual state statutes. Below is presented as guidance for further research.
https://www.usacarry.com/duty-to-inform-laws/[/QUOTE]

Most of the states seem to follow the “If Asked” policy, which is fine by me. The ones that don’t (e.g. MI) should be ones where the cops are trained to deal properly with people who say “I am armed”.

Also worth noting that in Minnesota (Castille’s state) he had the right to not tell the officer he had anything. And the officer should have figured out pretty quick Castille was NOT his suspect.

Honestly, fuck “Duty to Inform” if I think the cop pulling me over is trigger happy or nervous…I’ll inform them only once I feel it’s safe to do so. Sometimes you have to choose personal safety in the moment over “the rules”.

I’d rather them figure out on their own I’m carrying, and deal with the consequences (“oops!”), than play Russian Roulette with some tired, scared patrol officer.

There are cases where people have “informed” according to the law, only to have the cop go apeshit anyway. In this case, Castille who was clearly NOT A CRIMINAL volunteered the information…and was shot dead.

So much for THEIR “duty”.

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[QUOTE=BKR;2937049]1981 Toyota 4WD Truck in the driveway…still runs and is street legal.

I’d be more likely to roll the window down during daylight hours…[/QUOTE]

Even my old stuff I had the window down ,license ready and hands back at 11 and 1 by the time they got there.

For my daily driver(ford flex) now I have dark tint on everything bUT the drivers window, hence the all windows down policy.

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[QUOTE=Pship Destroyer;2937050]After this incident, I’m just of the opinion the safest time to inform a cop that I have a weapon is when they ask, AFTER I’ve handed them my license/permit, and AFTER the cop appears to be in control of the situation.

99/100 times you’re gonna get pulled over, the cop will do their thing, and let you go nary the wiser that you were packing a hand cannon.

Cops are trained to go to work the moment they know somebody is armed…but unless they decide you’re worthy of a search, your rights are pretty standard (per USSC): You don’t need to cooperate with ANY search. In fact other than obeying commands, you don’t even have to speak to an officer pulling you over.

That’s the part of this incident we didn’t see on video…how exactly that played out. I think the jury gave the officer the benefit of the doubt that however it occurred, it was sudden and jarring and caused him to panic.[/QUOTE]

If you were to ask an officer about when they “go to work”, it would be when their shift starts…

The cops I know assume that anybody they approach is armed, period. Especially in traffic stops.

On telling the cop armed or not, you have to check your state laws.

If you tell them you are armed, they may or may not want to see the weapon and do a NCIC check on it. That may be a gray area depending on why the stop was initiated.

It’s a fine line at times between asserting your rights and resist/obstruct/false info to LEO charges…

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[QUOTE=BKR;2937055]
If you tell them you are armed, they may or may not want to see the weapon and do a NCIC check on it. That may be a gray area depending on why the stop was initiated.
[/QUOTE]

Well according to this case study, if I tell them I’m armed per my duty to inform, they might shoot me no matter what I do next. Castille was allegedly reaching for his WALLET, not his gun, according to the reports. His gun never left his pocket. I don’t know if “proper protocol” matters in the case of a fidgety cop. I’d still much rather run afoul of a “Duty to Inform” statute than end up dead.

Castille had his girlfriend and a baby in the back seat, and this cop shot into the vehicle anyway, another sign that this was a case of an officer not thinking clearly or with anyone’s safety in mind but his own self-preservation. If he’d hit the baby or the passenger, would the decision have been different? What the fuck was he thinking…he wasn’t rational, by any measure.

Watching the video only confirms this, because he was totally not in control of the situation.

I won’t get too far into the race issues in this case, but I do believe “driving while black” is a thing as much as I believe “armed while black” is an even more dangerous thing. Driving while black AND armed…the law doesn’t have a great track record. I wish it wasn’t the case, but you don’t see a lot of cases like this where the driver/gun owner is white.

I think the jury ultimately sympathized with him because he was a scared cop, but I don’t see how that’s justice for Castille or his family. It’s just more of the same and it erodes trust in the police.

17

The police cruiser dash cam was released today.

All I can say from this angle is what the fuck…

As Castile hands Yanez his insurance card, he says, “Sir, I have to tell you that I do have a firearm on me."

Yanez: “OK, don’t reach for it then.”

Castile: “I’m… I’m… [inaudible] reaching.”

Yanez: “Don’t pull it out.”

Castile: “I’m not pulling it out.”

Passenger: “He’s not pulling it out.”

Yanez: “Don’t pull it out!”

[Seven shots fired]

//youtu.be/PMKcWz5nNoM

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Anytime law enforcement and the general populace interact in an uncontrolled environment, there is a danger to both. While LEOs are typically decent people trying to do a hard job, there are certainly bad eggs as well as officers who just have the wrong temperament/personality/whatever for the job. I’m not interested in getting into the issue of tracking which ones aren’t good at their jobs, or debating how to “rehome” them to a career they are better suited to, though that discussion certainly has merit outside of this topic.

My thoughts are that we need to consider what can be done to minimize danger to ourselves and LEOs in uncontrolled situations without undue violations to our constitutional rights. The fact that many of us put a lot of thought into what we can do to make LEOs feel more in control is a good first step. I would like to see an organization like the NRA put time and effort into training both sides on an agreed upon “SOP” that protects the rights of everyone and facilitates safe interaction in such situations. It would need to be carefully monitored and constantly scrutinized, but it seems to me that it could do a lot of good. Right now we just have our own thought processes on the situation, and while many of our ideas are valid, they aren’t necessarily in line with what LEOs may expect, since it appears both sides are just taking shots in the dark at this point. Unfortunately, sometimes literally.

The other thought that occurs to me is that local, state, and federal governments need to start carefully considering the true cost of many of the revenue generating activities they seem to think are a matter of course nowadays. Routine traffic stops being one of them.

Just my general thoughts. I have not followed this particular case too closely.

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[QUOTE=Pship Destroyer;2937058]Well according to this case study, if I tell them I’m armed per my duty to inform, they might shoot me no matter what I do next. Castille was allegedly reaching for his WALLET, not his gun, according to the reports. His gun never left his pocket. I don’t know if “proper protocol” matters in the case of a fidgety cop. I’d still much rather run afoul of a “Duty to Inform” statute than end up dead.

Castille had his girlfriend and a baby in the back seat, and this cop shot into the vehicle anyway, another sign that this was a case of an officer not thinking clearly or with anyone’s safety in mind but his own self-preservation. If he’d hit the baby or the passenger, would the decision have been different? What the fuck was he thinking…he wasn’t rational, by any measure.

Watching the video only confirms this, because he was totally not in control of the situation.

I won’t get too far into the race issues in this case, but I do believe “driving while black” is a thing as much as I believe “armed while black” is an even more dangerous thing. Driving while black AND armed…the law doesn’t have a great track record. I wish it wasn’t the case, but you don’t see a lot of cases like this where the driver/gun owner is white.

I think the jury ultimately sympathized with him because he was a scared cop, but I don’t see how that’s justice for Castille or his family. It’s just more of the same and it erodes trust in the police.[/QUOTE]

Like I wrote, I sit there with my hands on the steering wheel and wait for instructions. If I get shot like that, I guess it was just not my day.

Like I wrote, when the officer asks for registration and license, if she does, I state where those items are located, and ask if it’s OK to say, get into the center console, or take my wallet out of my right hip pocket/console, etc.

I’m not taking sides in this particular case.

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Arizona Updates Drivers Manual

[QUOTE=BKR;2937174]Like I wrote, I sit there with my hands on the steering wheel and wait for instructions. If I get shot like that, I guess it was just not my day.

Like I wrote, when the officer asks for registration and license, if she does, I state where those items are located, and ask if it’s OK to say, get into the center console, or take my wallet out of my right hip pocket/console, etc.

I’m not taking sides in this particular case.[/QUOTE]

Well, imagine that…
https://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/386236006-Ariz-tells-armed-drivers-how-to-avoid-deadly-police-stops/

[I]Ariz. tells armed drivers how to avoid deadly police stops
The new edition of the driver’s manual advises drivers to keep their hands on the steering wheel during a stop and tell cops right away that there’s a firearm in the car.[/I]