Mr. Questbrinn:
Are you stating that you acted as the primary trainer for a fighter to go into an MMA match,
even though you yourself have never competed in MMA, boxing, kickboxing, high level grappling, nor all of the above yourself?
[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2911934]Many schools, coaches, and practitioners over spar, or spar in a manner that accelerates injuries and the accumulation of bad habits rather than accelerating defect elimination and real learning in the people training.
Every medicine is a poison in the wrong application,
and many poisons have medicinal use when administered in the correct circumstance.
No sparring usually creates problems,
too much or too hard sparring without enough drilling
(especially before correct ideal responses are drilled very thoroughly such as falling skills, or correct responses to common scenarios expected in the sparring are drilled thoroughly)
also usually creates problems.
I make no other comment or opinion on the rest of this discussion,
which I am largely not following.[/QUOTE]
Well, no need, you pretty much perfectly summarized the topic.
I tried, you succeeded. Great post, Bill.
Even though you are not following this.
Royce was Vale Tudo Champion who also did well at MMA later.
This about equal to a rugby champion that also did well at American football . The games are very similar but not the same.
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2911966]Royce was Vale Tudo Champion who also did well at MMA later.
This about equal to a rugby champion that also did well at American football . The games are very similar but not the same.[/QUOTE]
Shit, he ducked my Kung Fu instructor in like 91.
[QUOTE=questbrinn;2911953]I get what you are saying and have no issue with it. But think, who are they doing well against? Each other?
When people train alike and then agree to the same rules for competition and you get a winner and a loser the winner and their methods are acclaimed for being good and even the loser to some extent because if you belittle the loser to much you take away from the win itself.
Does anyone else see the system at play here? The fact that 99% of people that compete against each other train in the same or similar manner means that saying that all the winners in x sport train this way so its the “right” way is simply a very un-scientific statement, imo.
I am not a scientist so my opinion matters little here I know but shouldn’t we test methods. The issue with any art, system or sport is that eventually the popularity of the thing destroys its progression at some point.
I remember Royce saying “the winning team doesn’t change” when he was asked if he would change or adapt his training methods for future fights. Well for the most part groups like his didn’t change and now we can see that the top levels of the fighting sport a have fewer and fewer people from that group specifically. Does that mean that their method is bad now? Of course not.
Back when I was saying sparring wasn’t the most effective way to train NO ONE was in my corner. Now everyone from Joe Rogan to Donald Cerrone says that sparring may not be the best way to train. I am not saying I came up with it for sure. Of course “any good gym now says too much sparring is bad” but back when I was saying we spar very little or not at all everyone lost their minds on me.[/QUOTE]
Again you’re not communicating correctly. The term you want to use is “Hard Sparring”. No sparring literally means no sparring. This is why you had so many doubters.
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2911943]Judging a teacher’s methods by his best students isn’t really the best way imo. There are people that have physical photographic-ish memories and ice water in their veins on competition day. They are the rare breed that could read a book with next to no other training and perform at a high level. Jermmy Horn, Evan Tanner Etc.,
I have had students/training partners like this. They are anomalies.
It’s best to get a cross section of how a school does as a whole and see how the non-gifted perform.
Also these are not high level competitions. The minor leagues in that area of the country are horrible compared to California, The tri-state area, or florida. Being a champion there could be a result of pure physicality,rather than skill.
The majority of the population will suck if they train like this. There’s a reason Special Forces do live fire drills. You fight like you practice.
Once you become a master of your disaplines you can just work on staying sharp.[/QUOTE]
Your experience and mine are congruent, Rayce. I’ve had students (Judo, of course, not MMA or BJJ but bear with me) who are well-described by your post. Anomalies for sure. They have superior coordination, genetically gifted physically, and are usually high-level visual/kinaesthetic learners.
As I tell my fellow judo coaches at times, and I think I’ve stated here at bullshido.net as well, they make you feel like the best Judo coach/teacher in the universe !
I’ve seen such anomalies in Judo quite a bit, both as students of mine and others. Some of them had mediocre coaches (in terms of ability and coaching skill), yet still made it easily to national level competition and won quite a bit.
Part of that depended on weight class and gender. In divisions with a lot of depth, they often did not shine quite as bright, as they would run into competition that had more/better coaching of the same sort of gifted athlete. Such anomalies had to get out of their small box (limited training partners and coach/training resources) to do much better (win at higher and higher levels of competition).
Hell, I had a girlfriend when I had been doing Judo for a couple of years who took up Judo. She could literally watch our sensei do something, and imitate it. She had a perfect sense of timing , too. By the time she had been doing Judo for 6 months, our sensei would tell me she was better at Judo than I was and I had been doing Judo for 2 years multiple times per week, competing regularly, and visiting other dojo as well to train. And she was… Oh, and she did beat other women in judo competition with more experience than her at local and state competitions, as well as doing well in randori when visiting other clubs. But when she ran up against national level competitors, she did well, but lost nonetheless every time.
Anyway, cools story 'bro, eh?
I’ve had many, many similar experiences over the years while learning to teach and coach Judo, both my own students, and observing other judoka and their coaches.
I will say though, my students always did randori, as it’s an integral part of Judo training and really cannot be replaced as a training method. It (randori) DOES get abused and used incorrectly (and way to much and too intense too early) in many, many judo programs.
[QUOTE=questbrinn;2911947]People swore that if I ever put out a fighter with my methods they would be seriously hurt and it would be a disaster.
Then I put out a fighter that I trained from scratch only using my methods. That fighter went undefeated against solid fighters that had previous experience.
And then they said it was a fluke.
The truth is people believe what they want and feel comfortable believing and in that world I am just a guy saying maybe its flat and not round.
“You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.”[/QUOTE]
What are your methods?
In outline, you dont’ have to give away any secrets. Include a timeline if possible.
If you want respect, or whatever you are after, you are going to need to be more specific.
[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2911950]Are you stating that you acted as the primary trainer for a fighter to go into an MMA match,
even though you yourself have never competed in MMA, boxing, kickboxing, high level grappling, nor all of the above yourself?[/QUOTE]
That is an excellent question for sure.
[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2911964]Mr. Questbrinn:
Are you stating that you acted as the primary trainer for a fighter to go into an MMA match,
even though you yourself have never competed in MMA, boxing, kickboxing, high level grappling, nor all of the above yourself?[/QUOTE]
I am simply responding and now growing very weary of this crap again. I came to work on something other than a rehash of the same stuff that I did back in 2009 on a 300+ page thread.
I have trained since I was 7 and I am 43 this year. I did nothing else really but train martial arts. I trained and competed for many years. Back then there was no internet or Bullshido so documenting everything really didn’t seem important to people. I don’t have extensive records nor do I care or need them.
I have trained and continue to train many fighters, coaches, instructors and my own personal students.
MMA didn’t exist in my time of competition.
I did workout with the Navy boxing team when I was in but couldn’t be on the team due to my specific rating and its requirements. I have boxed but not in any events.
I did kickboxing and learned and earned rank and even taught at an ISKA kickboxing world champion gym where Oaktree and Lopez trained. I did not compete in any kickboxing events.
I have grappled and competed in grappling events, the last being an event in Fayetteville, NC in 1999. Tara LaRosa actually won the division I competed in which had many fighters - I did not place. My student at the time, now a 2nd BB in BJJ, did - he won the beginner, intermediate and then went on to place 2nd in the advanced losing on points to browen belt at the time and assistant team roc instructor Aitor Canup.
Here is a pic or it didn’t happen:
- Student referenced above
- Me boxing with Navy team
- Earliest pic I could dig up of me competiting in Karate
[QUOTE=BKR;2911973]make you feel like the best Judo coach/teacher in the universe [/QUOTE]
And she was!
[QUOTE=questbrinn;2911977]I am simply responding and now growing very weary of this crap again. I came to work on something other than a rehash of the same stuff that I did back in 2009 on a 300+ page thread.
I have trained since I was 7 and I am 43 this year. I did nothing else really but train martial arts. I trained and competed for many years. Back then there was no internet or Bullshido so documenting everything really didn’t seem important to people. I don’t have extensive records nor do I care or need them.
I have trained and continue to train many fighters, coaches, instructors and my own personal students.
MMA didn’t exist in my time of competition.
I did workout with the Navy boxing team when I was in but couldn’t be on the team due to my specific rating and its requirements. I have boxed but not in any events.
I did kickboxing and learned and earned rank and even taught at an ISKA kickboxing world champion gym where Oaktree and Lopez trained. I did not compete in any kickboxing events.
I have grappled and competed in grappling events, the last being an event in Fayetteville, NC in 1999. Tara LaRosa actually won the division I competed in which had many fighters - I did not place. My student at the time, now a 2nd BB in BJJ, did - he won the beginner, intermediate and then went on to place 2nd in the advanced losing on points to browen belt at the time and assistant team roc instructor Aitor Canup.
Here is a pic or it didn’t happen:
- Student referenced above
- Me boxing with Navy team
- Earliest pic I could dig up of me competiting in Karate[/QUOTE]
I would like to disagree in a minor sense; I’m older than you and got into MMA style competition in 1992. So it was there, it wasn’t called mma and it wasn’t that popular but it was there.
Just nitpicking here.
[QUOTE=questbrinn;2911953]I get what you are saying and have no issue with it. But think, who are they doing well against? Each other?
When people train alike and then agree to the same rules for competition and you get a winner and a loser the winner and their methods are acclaimed for being good and even the loser to some extent because if you belittle the loser to much you take away from the win itself.
Does anyone else see the system at play here? The fact that 99% of people that compete against each other train in the same or similar manner means that saying that all the winners in x sport train this way so its the “right” way is simply a very un-scientific statement, imo.
I am not a scientist so my opinion matters little here I know but shouldn’t we test methods. The issue with any art, system or sport is that eventually the popularity of the thing destroys its progression at some point.
I remember Royce saying “the winning team doesn’t change” when he was asked if he would change or adapt his training methods for future fights. Well for the most part groups like his didn’t change and now we can see that the top levels of the fighting sport a have fewer and fewer people from that group specifically. Does that mean that their method is bad now? Of course not.
Back when I was saying sparring wasn’t the most effective way to train NO ONE was in my corner. Now everyone from Joe Rogan to Donald Cerrone says that sparring may not be the best way to train. I am not saying I came up with it for sure. Of course “any good gym now says too much sparring is bad” but back when I was saying we spar very little or not at all everyone lost their minds on me.[/QUOTE]
Any truly knowledgeable coach/sensei/trainer/teacher is not going to have any problem with someone saying that sparring has to be done in a measured way in terms of frequency, timing, intensity, and place in training cycle (including the skill level of the student) in order to get optimal results out of sparring randori as training method.
The same is true for other training methods, from dead static drilling (solo or paired) to dynamic, unscripted or scripted with options drilling between two highly skilled practitioners. Different training methods have their time and place in the training cycle.
That is all common knowledge among people with the experience and proper coach/teacher training.
Nobody here, as far as I can tell, is saying that sparring is the MOST effective way to train an athlete. To do so would be a hugely over-broad statement.
The fact that Cowboy, or Rogan, or whoever recently said something about not sparring a lot is NOTHING new, at least to experienced and trained coaches, not only in combat sports, but ANY contact sport.
Do pro football teams do live full contact scrimmages as their main type of training? Dont’ think so… You know, blitz and cream your star quarterback as much as possible, right, that would work out well…
You are trying to legitimize your “methods”, apparently…feel free to correct me if I’m wrong as to your motivation here.
[QUOTE=Omega Supreme;2911979]I would like to disagree in a minor sense; I’m older than you and got into MMA style competition in 1992. So it was there, it wasn’t called mma and it wasn’t that popular but it was there.
Just nitpicking here.[/QUOTE]
For sure, I actually opened a gym for a friend who trained under Matt Hume. The school was called Western Pankration. I did that so I could learn from him.
Needless to say by the time it was popular enough to not just be a sideshow event I was busy running a school, after-school and living the married life.
And when I say no sparring that is what I mean. The guys training under me following what I teach do ZERO sparring.
[QUOTE=questbrinn;2911954]The truth is the mind doesn’t learn as effectively when trying to do so under stress. When presented with stress or the fear of injury they brains functions divert much more to trying to relieve the situation then it does to learn through it. You can google this for people more qualified than me that have waxed long on the facts of the matter.[/QUOTE]
So, this is something new?
Progressive training has been around for a long time, Mr. Brinn.
[QUOTE=DCS;2911956]Right.
Now, what about stress exposure in training to avoid performance degradation under pressure?[/QUOTE]
Or in other words, dealing with adrenaline dump(s) and their effect on performance?
(hint, loss of fine motor control and all that).
[QUOTE=questbrinn;2911977]I am simply responding and now growing very weary of this crap again. I came to work on something other than a rehash of the same stuff that I did back in 2009 on a 300+ page thread.[/QUOTE]
[It is Fake imitation]
That’s exactly why you’re here. You thought the attitude would be different, given that time has passed. In the end, it’s your attitude that needs changing.
[/It is Fake imitation]
The attitude, here, HAS changed, though. We do still like to ask pertinent questions. If you have a problem defending those queries, perhaps not enough time has passed, for you. We’ll be here when you get back.
[QUOTE=BKR;2911980]Any truly knowledgeable coach/sensei/trainer/teacher is not going to have any problem with someone saying that sparring has to be done in a measured way in terms of frequency, timing, intensity, and place in training cycle (including the skill level of the student) in order to get optimal results out of sparring randori as training method.
The same is true for other training methods, from dead static drilling (solo or paired) to dynamic, unscripted or scripted with options drilling between two highly skilled practitioners. Different training methods have their time and place in the training cycle.
That is all common knowledge among people with the experience and proper coach/teacher training.
Nobody here, as far as I can tell, is saying that sparring is the MOST effective way to train an athlete. To do so would be a hugely over-broad statement.
The fact that Cowboy, or Rogan, or whoever recently said something about not sparring a lot is NOTHING new, at least to experienced and trained coaches, not only in combat sports, but ANY contact sport.
Do pro football teams do live full contact scrimmages as their main type of training? Dont’ think so… You know, blitz and cream your star quarterback as much as possible, right, that would work out well…
You are trying to legitimize your “methods”, apparently…feel free to correct me if I’m wrong as to your motivation here.[/QUOTE]
I love you speak as if you are the one who holds account of all acceptable things. So what if what I teach or preach is not acceptable. I am not looking for anyone’s acceptance. You don’t break barriers or reach new levels working within the old confines.
Just because you or your cabal disagree with whether my teaching or methods are approved or not doesn’t mean they are or aren’t.
We disagree, who cares. I am not trying or interested in changing anyone’s minds. The people that come to me, entirely by referral, get the results they are seeking and continue to train with me for the same reason.
I don’t care what the rest of the world does either. I am doing my own thing in my own way.
I do appreciate all the hard work all of you have put in and your expertise. My decision to go off the farm is not a rejection of you or your ideas it is just a desire to explore new possibilities.
Why can’t that be enough. I don’t go around calling people out or telling them what they are doing is wrong or not right.
[QUOTE=questbrinn;2911959]True. The Karate gym I trained and taught at had 5 World ISKA Champions in it. A lot of “my ideas” started from those days. I am a product of my training and nothing more although I feel the onus to push forward and always look for better ways to train.
The game always changes so we must as well or die where we stand.
I don’t believe in sparring at all and that includes grappling.
I do believe in training grappling with strikes and do so to keep it real but always playful.
That kind of “rolling” only comes after a long time of study and drills and is the smallest percentage of the training however.
Jack Dempsey wrote in his book that when training a fighter you should not teach them to defend first or they will always spend there time defending. I think there is a true gem in that statement. If you spar to train, fight to train, then you are just trying to learn not to get hit instead of how to hit.
As for degradation of performance once under real stress, the factors are truly marginal from what I have seen. There is no reason to spend 80% of the time training for the 5% negative IMO.[/QUOTE]
Who spends 80% of their time doing hard contact sparring or randori as a primary training method at which stage of a training cycle/lifetime? Especially people who are just starting out ?
Any coach who uses the survival of the fittest type of training, and that is what your “method” seems to be a reaction against, is a crappy coach, period end of story.
And I know, there are quite a few who do, although it’s usually higher levels of training, or to weed out the “weaklings”. Judo training in Japan is famous for the “cream rises to the top” attitude, but they have millions of people doing Judo so can afford to have a lot of drop-outs…
[QUOTE=Nutcracker, sweet;2911985][It is Fake imitation]
That’s exactly why you’re here. You thought the attitude would be different, given that time has passed. In the end, it’s your attitude that needs changing.
[/It is Fake imitation]
The attitude, here, HAS changed, though. We do still like to ask pertinent questions. If you have a problem defending those queries, perhaps not enough time has passed, for you. We’ll be here when you get back.[/QUOTE]
Dude, when is enough enough. I have gone through all this crap so many times. When can I just come here and post and talk to people sharing my ideas without a complete purge through my past.
Its like i am a nail sticking up through Bullshido’s floor and they just can’t resist hammer the crap out of it.
I am different and will always be that way.
I checked back in hoping to find something that maybe can’t exist here.
[QUOTE=Omega Supreme;2911972]Again you’re not communicating correctly. The term you want to use is “Hard Sparring”. No sparring literally means no sparring. This is why you had so many doubters.[/QUOTE]
The very fact that he can’t get terminology correct casts doubts in my mind, for sure.