Could someone please explain to me why the police are going ape shit in the hood and why my black ass shouldn’t be concerned? I’m starting to regret training these fucks.
The incidents that are being publicized in the media are just that, publicized. Just about everyone in the USA has a phone or some other means of recording audio / video on their person at all times. Some of these incidents cannot in any way, be justified and others can.
I won’t ever try to delude myself into thinking that racism doesn’t exist within the law enforcement community, but that isn’t always the reason these things happen.
I won’t even begin to think that there aren’t a few cops out there who have some anger and / or mental health issues. I blame the flawed vetting process allows these guys slip through the cracks on occasion.
I have never been one to defend the actions of an officer who is on the wrong end of a bad use of force. I try to analyze the incident objectively and reason why they did what they did and don’t want to automatically declare them wrong. As the father of bi-racial children, I wouldn’t want an officer’s decision to use force to have anything to do with skin color.
I made an exception in the shooting of Walter Scott by former officer Walter Slager. I watched the video and could only muster a WHAT THE FUCK? As someone who teaches Use Of Force, I have no idea what Slager was thinking as he executed Mr. Scott. I don’t know if it was racism, if Slager was having a bad day, if he got confused about some aspect of the law or whatever. What I do know is that under those circumstances, there is no way that I would have been in fear for my life and could not justify a use of force.
I don’t pretend to know what happened to result in the in-custody death of Freddie Gray. What I am sure of is that some of the Baltimore officers involved, at the very least, violated policies.
As for the Ferguson, MO incident, former officer Wilson appears to have been justified in shooting Michael Brown. I am basing this on the physical evidence presented and the numerous eye-witness accounts that Brown was taking it to Wilson. If some (not so) gentle-giant such as Michael Brown was trying to beat my ass, I could easily articulate my fear and justify letting the air out of him, whether or not he was armed.
I hate to MMQB these incidents merely because someone posted a video on YouTube or CNN picked it up. When I heard that there was dash-cam footage depicting the lead-in to the first video in the shooting of Walter Scott, I thought there may be more to it. After watching the dash-cam video, I was even more confused and disgusted.
Keep in mind, the following things:
Less than 5% of the population take up 85% of law enforcement resources.
A street officer has seconds to make life-changing decisions (courts have years).
Police are human, they have human emotions and are apt to make mistakes.
Common-sense is an attribute which cannot be taught or instilled.
There are two sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Your perception of what threatens your life may differ greatly from mine.
As for the regrets you may have for training these guys, all I can say is get to know the people you train and if they exhibit clues that they are racist, mentally ill or just plain stupid, don’t continue training them.
I had an officer come to me in 1992 and say “I only want to learn enough of that karate shit to keep someone off me until I can clear my holster.” I told him that I didn’t have anything that could help him.
Best answer possible.
Just popping in to state that this thread will remain in the Armory as long as the discussion remains productive, thoughtful, and civil. It would be good to get a number of LEO perspectives on recent events. A few shitty posts will cause me to start moderating the thread, and a lot of shitty posts will cause me to dump it somewhere else.
I was a probation officer not a street cop, so I don’t have a lot to input into this. Mostly, I think slamdunk said about all that was needed to be said. I would just add that I think the problem, where it exists, is based on bad cops, not racism. I will also say, that in seven years in corrections and law-enforcement, I never once encountered any overt racism. At least, if I worked with any real racists, they knew enough to keep quiet around me. Also, I don’t know what the statistics are, and certainly there were fewer than white officers, but I still saw plenty of black officers working as well. So the law-enforcement community is hardly an all white country club.
I have to agree with all comments, so far.
I had black partners, white partners and one asian partner that was one of the funniest guys I ever met and was a great backup.
I am mixed race and will state that if someone acted like they had some sense when I stopped them, answered my questions and no wrong-doing was discovered, they were allowed to leave with a full explanation on why they were stopped and a thank you for their time. Those others were taken into custody and delivered to corrections.
I encountered resistance on a regular basis, had individuals tell me I could not stop them or they did not have to answer any questions or produce identification. Black, white, brown, red or yellow. All kinds. Had to get pretty physical with some and had to babysit them in the ER before going to corrections. If I had a predjudice it was against dirtballs that stole, damaged property or hurt those that could not defend themselves. Other than that, I have no problems with anyone that acts like an adult.
Can’t add more than just repeating what’s already been said.
The impression I get from some people with their “cop stories” is that many folks seem to think we are some sort of uniform, nationalized force…and that when one officer #$%&@'s up that somehow shows/proves we all would do the same thing.
Police service is very local in terms of quality. Large Metro PD’s are nothing like my Mid-Size agency which is nothing like a small 8 man PD.
I think the whole “thin blue cover up” thing is hackneyed too…
Sure, I usually won’t join in on commentary on LE wrongdoing from the other side of the country that is solely based on net/news articles that only know or show half the story.
This is because the press seems to want to stir up @#$% more than they want to reveal the truth. However, I believe that I want bad apples gone MORE than the “non cop”. The bad ones just make it harder for the rest of us. But, that mindset can also be dependent on exactly what PD/Agency we are talking about vs Law Enforcement in general.
[QUOTE=JudOWNED;2853832]I think the problem, where it exists, is based on bad cops, not racism.[/QUOTE]Exactly! This was the secondary point of my long rant, the first being the publicity. Statistically, there have and always will be a certain percentage of bad in any given profession or vocation.
If your plumber gets drunk and gets a DUI, it is usually in the blotter section of the local newspaper and so far back that nobody cares. If a public figure, or person in a position of trust (teacher, preacher, politician, or cop got one, it would be front page news. I have never taken issue with this, as people in positions of trust must be held to a higher standard of conduct.
I always get a chuckle when I’m on Officer.com and police hopefuls ask bizarre questions about their pasts and if their plethora of past indiscretions will keep them out of law enforcement. I read others who complain about how difficult the hiring-process is. They have questions about the crimes they committed, the dope they’ve smoked, the mental health issues they’ve been diagnosed with, their disappointing polygraph results, and so on.
There is no foolproof process by which we can eliminate all of the bad apples. For every bad apple that is wearing the uniform, there are about 98 honest, hard-working officers out there doing their job. Nonetheless, when the one bad apple does his bad deed, the rest of us have to live in their shadow. Every time some dirt-bag bully with a badge hands out an ass-whooping or shoots someone, the public judges the majority.
The best advice I ever received as a rookie was to always act as if you are being recorded (audio and video), no matter what type of call you are on. Now, several years later, we are being recorded. Every time I speak with an officer who thinks it is a bad idea to wear body-cams, I have to wonder why. Out of the forty or so cops I’ve had this discussion with, five absolutely did not want to wear the body-cam.
I feel that this is the best way to protect me and often record encounters with the public even though it isn’t yet mandated. If everyone else is recording me and could possibly edit it for context (sound-bites), I would be much better off to have the entire encounter taped. I would guarantee that if it becomes a national protocol, a lot of officers will either retire or be fired.
[QUOTE=slamdunc;2853844]Every time I speak with an officer who thinks it is a bad idea to wear body-cams, I have to wonder why. Out of the forty or so cops I’ve had this discussion with, five absolutely did not want to wear the body-cam.
…
I would be much better off to have the entire encounter taped. I would guarantee that if it becomes a national protocol, a lot of officers will either retire or be fired.[/QUOTE]
A lot of officers is not a few bad apples and, by your numbers, we’re around 12% of LEO who feel they have something to hide.
[QUOTE=DCS;2853848]A lot of officers is not a few bad apples and, by your numbers, we’re around 12% of LEO who feel they have something to hide.[/QUOTE]
That’s a small anecdotal sample to pull a percentage for all LEO from.
Of 131 cops in my PD, I’d say 2 would have a “problem” with body cams…
[QUOTE=tgace;2853850]That’s a small anecdotal sample to pull a percentage from…[/QUOTE]
Sure but five of around forty in Slamdiunc’s case is a serious number of LEO who ‘absolutely’ do not want their work recorded by their own department.
[QUOTE=DCS;2853852]Sure but five of around forty in Slamdiunc’s case is a serious number of LEO who ‘absolutely’ do not want their work recorded by their own department.[/QUOTE]
Maybe… Slam would have to clarify what “problem” means.
Not wanting to wear a cam automatically means “bad cop”.
Many cops in my PD were against car cams because they thought they were going to be used to twist righteous actions against them. Once they saw they justified their actions vs demonizing them they became fans of them.
But even if it did equate to “bad cop”, that could point to a problem in Slams particular PD…not mine…or LE in general.
[QUOTE=tgace;2853853]Maybe… Slam would have to clarify what “problem” means.[/QUOTE]In the course of our discussions, one veteran officer told me that it is too intrusive and it is none of anyone’s damn business what he does while on duty. A couple of them made reference to it being an invasion of the privacy of the people we have contact with, and one just shook his head and said “no way, I’d quit first.”
[QUOTE=DCS;2853848]A lot of officers is not a few bad apples and, by your numbers, we’re around 12% of LEO who feel they have something to hide.[/QUOTE]This, in and of itself, does not mean these guys are bad apples, but the something to hide thing was on my mind. I know many officers who just hate any type of change or restriction. Most of these guys were never in the military and since academy, haven’t been given specific direction. I just roll with the changes and wouldn’t care who was riding along or just watching me do my job.
[QUOTE=slamdunc;2853867]In the course of our discussions, one veteran officer told me that it is too intrusive and it is none of anyone’s damn business what he does while on duty. [/QUOTE]
It’s his supervisor business.
A couple of them made reference to it being an invasion of the privacy of the people we have contact with,
1st degree bullshit.
and one just shook his head and said “no way, I’d quit first.”
No problem, lots of unemployed vets are looking for jobs.
This, in and of itself, does not mean these guys are bad apples, but the something to hide thing was on my mind.
Of course I’m not thinking they’re selling drugs in front of elementary schools, but body cams are not about live streaming Cops for public enjoyment so, like in other jobs, if you don’t want to be supervised by your boss you better be self employed.
BTW, it seems there’s some rioting in Baltimore
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/27/freddie-gray-protest-mall_n_7154708.html
[QUOTE=DCS;2853915]It’s his supervisor business.
1st degree bullshit.
No problem, lots of unemployed vets are looking for jobs.
Of course I’m not thinking they’re selling drugs in front of elementary schools, but body cams are not about live streaming Cops for public enjoyment so, like in other jobs, if you don’t want to be supervised by your boss you better be self employed.
BTW, it seems there’s some rioting in Baltimore
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/27/freddie-gray-protest-mall_n_7154708.html[/QUOTE]
Bodycams are not always about “supervision”…in my state we can’t randomly go through car camera footage to “spot check” officers. There has to be a specific reason to look into footage (IA investigation). I would care less if I was made to wear one.
The real issue with camera implementation is the “back end” costs. The downloading, storage and access of all that data isn’t a simple or cheap process.
Car camera data is a huge IT load as it is…and they only go on when the lights are activated. Cameras on each officer, recording every contact is gonna be orders of magnitude more.
Same shit, different thread.
Nevermind.
Eh…you can no more judge the entirety of LE based on what you see on youtube than I can (or should) judge an entire segment of the population based on what I see happening in Baltimore.
[QUOTE=tgace;2853945]Eh…you can no more judge the entirety of LE based on what you see on youtube than I can (or should) judge an entire segment of the population based on what I see happening in Baltimore.[/QUOTE]
Sure you can, it’s been going on for different racial groups, jobs and socioeconomic levels for centuries all over the world. Yes, ignored your “youtube” narrowing.
[QUOTE=DCS;2853915]It’s his supervisor business.[/QUOTE]Yes, it sure is. Police officers work for and are accountable to the public; some officers either forget or ignore this fact. I work as Chief Deputy, directly for an elected Sheriff. He is accountable to his voters, I am accountable to him and so on down the line. Only a few of our officers wear body-cams, but when it is mandated by either statute or policy, my job will be a lot easier.
[QUOTE=DCS;2853915]like in other jobs, if you don’t want to be supervised by your boss you better be self employed.[/QUOTE]I agree 100%.
I am pro nody cams, but I can certainly understand why some police wouldn’t want to wear them.
I wouldn’t want to be on camera all day at work either.
That being said in the end it should make their jobs a lot easier.