Knife vs Unarmed

Martial Arts Training Forums The Armory: Weapons, Military, LEO, and Self Defen
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No this is not the thread you think it is. This is a person getting attacked by a unarmed attacker and the defender deploying a knife in self-defense.

Now here is the back story for those of you that don’t religiously follow the Bullshido Facebook Page and why would you, you are already reading the forums which means you are awesome.

There was a video posted on Facebook (that has since been removed) that involved a Karambit instructor getting attacked with a rear bear hug, attacker and defender were roughly the same size. The defender, deployed a Karambit, cut down the inside of the leg to “break the grip”, swept the attacker and finished with multiple cuts to the neck and body.

My response to what in my opinion is highly illegal escalation was to make a joke about it only be appropriate on Arrakis (if you get this reference, you are still awesome). The Instructor teaching the technique, sent a message asking our site of keyboard warriors whose opinion doesn’t matter to take down his video. My initial response which as always is “No, please justify what you are teaching.” However, DerAuslander claimed I was being a douche, he can justify what was being taught and removed the video.

As I have instructed knife for several years, but never taught this situation. I put some thought into it and I can see two “legitimate” uses. The first is the attacker is that much bigger than the defender, such a 100+kg man attacking a <50kg women. The second would be Military/LEO situation where any attack on the solider/officer can be responded to with lethal force. So in each situation you can justify that the initial attack could of been lethal the force was appropriate.

I am not sure that is what we were seeing here as despite the BDU outfit, the audience didn’t seem to be Law Enforcement and the video was labeled as defense against a rear bear hug. Either way, here is the thread to have a serious discussion. Was I being a douche? Is this a legitimate self-defense technique? I still maintain if you did this in a self-defense situation, there is a good chance you will be going to jail.

2

Without having seen the video or having a better understanding of the legality of pulling a knife in a fist fight, it is hard to say. I’d be interested to see what the LEOs on this forum would think if this situation happened in their AOs. My assumption is that this is going to vary greatly based on state law (castle doctrine, etc), and might be harder to defend in court than use of a firearm in many cases.

I sure wish all those gun control advocates were here to provide us with useful statistics on “knife violence” so we could get an idea of how often something like this happens. Oh wait, they only care about one particular combination of metal and plastic.

3

I would say that the Self Defence part would end as soon as the attacker is no longer a threat. Opening up a 12" wound in some ones thigh could do that.

If the victim then turns round and continues to gut the attacker, then I would say the victim/attacker roles have been reversed and it’s now assault with a deadly weapon.

I suppose it could be justified by ‘being in fear for you’re life’ and the wheel of justice would need a spin. In Blighty however, we be hauled up in court next to the attacker (should they survive) for carrying a weapon in the fist place.

We have some shoddy self defence laws.

4

That particular series was beyond overkill.

He didn’t just dissable the attacker. He proceeded to field dress and butcher it’s corpse.

I wish that statement was an exageration. It is not.

5

What you’re able to do in a self defence situation is ridiculous in court, doubled by the strict laws against carrying knives in the UK (if applying would that situation elsewhere) mean that scenario wouldn’t legally fly in just a civilian setting. This being said without having seen the video though, and just going by the description.

6

It’s my understanding that in most of the USA, if you can legally carry a gun you are better protected using it for self defense than any other weapon.

I am not a lawyer, but I believe that attacking anyone with a knife is considered attempted murder. Therefore, unless you are already defending yourself from someone attempting to kill you, using a knife in self defense is a bad idea.

Of course, you could be justified using a knife against a bear hug if there was another attacker who was trying to kill you.

I’m not familiar with FMA/Silat. I could see a desire to pass on the traditional use of the karambit.

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[QUOTE=Plasma;2856213] Either way, here is the thread to have a serious discussion. Was I being a douche?[/QUOTE]
I don’t think so.

Is this a legitimate self-defense technique?

I’d say yes (with reservations, for the attack was a mere rear bear hug) until the attacker was swept. What followed looked like STREET JUSTICE ™ which is illegal in most civilized countries.

I still maintain if you did this in a self-defense situation, there is a good chance you will be going to jail.

For sure.

8

Some context:

I have asked the instructor in the video in question to post of the thread, but he rather not be involved with Internet thread/forums which I can respect. Apparently, the video in question took place at a terrorist threat seminar with the discussion of being in hostile territory.

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[QUOTE=Plasma;2856238]Some context:
…
Apparently, the video in question took place at a terrorist threat seminar with the discussion of being in hostile territory.
[/QUOTE]

This sounds like “Splinter Cell: Blacklist” LARPing

//youtu.be/db1AGtxWxdw

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[QUOTE=Plasma;2856238]Some context:

I have asked the instructor in the video in question to post of the thread, but he rather not be involved with Internet thread/forums which I can respect. Apparently, the video in question took place at a terrorist threat seminar with the discussion of being in hostile territory.

[/QUOTE]

United States Martial Arts Hall of Fame training camp ?

OOOOkayyyyy…

11

Of course, the context of the video has already been explained in Plasma’s post, but I’m going to put my two cents in anyways.

If the situation was the typical bromantic situation(two guys get annoyed at each other, initiate the stare-down, puff up chest and try to look larger than the other bloke, maybe a shove) and then the fists fly…then, no, using a knife is not justifiable.

If however, the situation is, you’ve had to work late yet again, its now 11 P.M., you’re walking to you car, which is parked several blocks away, in a parking garage(cuz that’s how you’re employer rocks), in a run down part of town, and someone jumps you…well, maybe you can justify using the knife, initially(the thigh slash, to get free). The rest depends on what your attacker decides to do next.

When i see these kinds of videos, I usually look at them as what someone is likely to do to me if I get complacent. You never know what’s in your attackers mind, what he’s willing to do, or what he had planned all along. A lot of people have no issue with using a knife the second they get into trouble.

12

I’ve taught a little knife self defense and I’ve mostly regurgitated stuff I learned at a Dog Bros DLO seminar, because even though I’ve done several years of FMA etc it made the most sense for a knife curriculum in the modern US.

Anyway, one of my problem with teaching bear hug releases etc as techniques is that it presupposes that you’re suddenly put in a bear hug. How did this person get behind you while you had a karambit in your hand?

The seminar covered it this way- the way you’re going to counter a violent assault is with a violent counterassault. But the hard part isn’t knowing a pattern to cut a guy to ribbons. Its giving yourself permission to, and possible priming the witnesses to quickly draw their attention to what’s happening- someone is coming at you with violent intent and you’re shutting them down.

This kind of training involves lots of “live training” including the use of harsh language and criminal interview tactics. After a decade in the martial arts, I thought that part would be easier, but its something I’d never really trained in kung fu. I’d never really practiced going from someone cursing in your face into knife fighting mode, and a split second of hesitation is all it takes to fatally lose. And then, what if you go right for your knife because they reached behind their back, and pull out their cellphone instead of a weapon? We did a little bit of scenario training like that.

If I were some kind of criminal in a situation where lethal force was involved and I was sneaking up behind someone who was armed with a karambit (or any other weapon), there’s no way I’d be going for a rear bear hug (and if I was sneaking up on someone to attack them, I’d be sure to get a peek of what’s in their hands). That would be like countering an eye gouge by giving your opponent a noogie. I’d either go in for the kill with a weapon or do nothing. If my goal was to immobilize them, I’d go for a full nelson rather than an over-the-arms bearhug. Its the underhooks control from the rear and keeps them from accessing weapons on their waistline.

If someone had a karambit and was bear hugged from behind, I’d say that training’s not really necessary to cut the hell out of the guy. Its like teaching a class on how to shoot a guy in the head at point blank range using a gun with no moving parts and unlimited ammo. You don’t need to add in a silat knee pressure takedown etc. That kind of stuff reminds me of this pic:

^Sure, slap a gooseneck on the guy, but do you really think that’s what’s keeping the guy down?

13

When the hell did a bear hug become a life-threatening assault?

Seriously, whenever I’ve been bear hugged, it’s been by a friend or family member just messing around. Should I have deployed a knife and severed their femoral arteries for that?

I would say that bear hugs in general are almost the opposite of a violent assault. They are used to restrain someone who is getting violent. We’ve all seen bouncers do it to rowdy drunks, and it always seemed a pretty humane way to keep everyone safe, and move someone outside.

What the fuck is with some of these paranoid FMA and RBSD folks anyway, where they want to just mince up anyone who looks at them even funny? Shit, I mean I’m a FMA practicioner. I teach sticks, knives, sword, bats, etc., but I don’t even try to pretend that any of these are common threats in most semi-civilized societies.

I’m 42, and have only had knives pulled on me 3 times. Only once was it actually a committed attack where someone was really trying to harm me. And that one time, I did exactly what I teach my students. I ran the fuck away.

Even if I had been carrying a blade, I would have been a total dumbshit to try and engage in any of these incidents. For the first two, I would have escalated conflicts which were easily diffused. For the later, I likely would have won the fight, but there’s a good chance I’d have been injured and the attacker would be dead. Or I might be dead.

So, best case scenerio would be that I’d be spending time in the E.R. getting stitched up, then likely be spending a couple of nights in jail until the police got things sorted out. If it ended up worse, I’d be spending years in prison, or be dead. Nothing like cutting a man up to boost the ego, huh?!

If instructors really want to do their students a service with regards to knives or any weapons for that matter, they should encourage them to practice running regularly. For every outlying case where you have no escape possible, there are 10 others where you could have run the fuck away. You should never try to “win” a knife fight. You should try to survive.

And if you escalate a casual confrontation into a lethal knife fight, fuck you. You are a pussy and a coward. Or you really need to move out of the third world shit hole that you live in, where every conflict is considered a potentially mortal affront.

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[QUOTE=Plasma;2856238]Some context:

I have asked the instructor in the video in question to post of the thread, but he rather not be involved with Internet thread/forums which I can respect. Apparently, the video in question took place at a terrorist threat seminar with the discussion of being in hostile territory.

[/QUOTE]

Gotcha, so it’s not “commit attempted murder in response to a clearly non life threatening attack” stupid, it’s “here’s how to waste time training against an attack that has never, and will never happen” stupid.

Only exception in the real world is women’s self defense, where it’s probably not a good idea to let a man remove you from the current location. The philosophy being, if he wanted to rob you, he would do it right there, if he needs you to be somewhere else, he’s got something much worse in mind.

That said, have fun knifing someone that appears from nowhere and bearhugs you, because it’s definitely not a cop that mistook you for someone else, and you won’t get shot 17 times as a result.

15

[QUOTE=RynoGreene;2856310]When the hell did a bear hug become a life-threatening assault?

Seriously, whenever I’ve been bear hugged, it’s been by a friend or family member just messing around. Should I have deployed a knife and severed their femoral arteries for that?

I would say that bear hugs in general are almost the opposite of a violent assault. They are used to restrain someone who is getting violent. We’ve all seen bouncers do it to rowdy drunks, and it always seemed a pretty humane way to keep everyone safe, and move someone outside.

What the fuck is with some of these paranoid FMA and RBSD folks anyway, where they want to just mince up anyone who looks at them even funny? Shit, I mean I’m a FMA practicioner. I teach sticks, knives, sword, bats, etc., but I don’t even try to pretend that any of these are common threats in most semi-civilized societies.

I’m 42, and have only had knives pulled on me 3 times. Only once was it actually a committed attack where someone was really trying to harm me. And that one time, I did exactly what I teach my students. I ran the fuck away.

Even if I had been carrying a blade, I would have been a total dumbshit to try and engage in any of these incidents. For the first two, I would have escalated conflicts which were easily diffused. For the later, I likely would have won the fight, but there’s a good chance I’d have been injured and the attacker would be dead. Or I might be dead.

So, best case scenerio would be that I’d be spending time in the E.R. getting stitched up, then likely be spending a couple of nights in jail until the police got things sorted out. If it ended up worse, I’d be spending years in prison, or be dead. Nothing like cutting a man up to boost the ego, huh?!

If instructors really want to do their students a service with regards to knives or any weapons for that matter, they should encourage them to practice running regularly. For every outlying case where you have no escape possible, there are 10 others where you could have run the fuck away. You should never try to “win” a knife fight. You should try to survive.

And if you escalate a casual confrontation into a lethal knife fight, fuck you. You are a pussy and a coward. Or you really need to move out of the third world shit hole that you live in, where every conflict is considered a potentially mortal affront.[/QUOTE]

Hey, they were doing that at a martial arts hall of fame “anti-terrorist” training camp…

serious business, dude, serious business…

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[QUOTE=Plasma;2856238][/QUOTE]

Ah, so it wasn’t a bear hug, it was a Terrorist Bear Hug.

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[QUOTE=Permalost;2856340]Ah, so it wasn’t a bear hug, it was a Terrorist Bear Hug.[/QUOTE]

Right, because terrorists default to H2H, always. Gotta keep the context in mind, always…

18

Welllllllllll, my two cents are that if you are in the badlands and are jumped from behind, anything goes.

In the good ole USA (civilian world), if you are attacked by unknown person and you do not kow if they were armed or what their intent was, you have to play the reasonable person scenario that will air in court. (This in no way presupposes you are anything but a civilian or would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6). If you have reason to believe your life is in danger and you react with force, regardless of what your initial level is, once you are able to reassess your situation (you have stopped the attack), if the attacker submits/leaves, you are done. If the attacker continues the attack, then there is intent and you do your job.

Self defense is getting more difficult to prove, and, you are not allowed to vegi-matic the dude after you have the upper hand. Even if you do everything right, you still stand a very good chance of having a true bill returned by the Grand Jury and going to trial.

19

[QUOTE=DaTedBear;2857734]Welllllllllll, my two cents are that if you are in the badlands and are jumped from behind, anything goes.

In the good ole USA (civilian world), if you are attacked by unknown person and you do not know if they were armed or what their intent was, you have to play the reasonable person scenario that will air in court. (This in no way presupposes you are anything but a civilian or would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6). If you have reason to believe your life is in danger and you react with force, regardless of what your initial level is, once you are able to reassess your situation (you have stopped the attack), if the attacker submits/leaves, you are done. If the attacker continues the attack, then there is intent and you do your job.

Self defense is getting more difficult to prove, and, you are not allowed to vegi-matic the dude after you have the upper hand. Even if you do everything right, you still stand a very good chance of having a true bill returned by the Grand Jury and going to trial.[/QUOTE]

I agree with DaTedBear, especially the last paragraph. Now I’m not gonna beat a dead horse, but I feel it’s also important to know and keep yourself updated on any and all applicable self-defense laws. Have a good lawyer as well.

20

Lol @ the gooseneck shotgun combo. Mean to up vote that. If someone jumped me from behind without warning I’d consider my general threat level. If I feel I’m safe and don’t have enemies, I’d go with unarmed defense. If I were in a high threat area, or felt unsafe in general, I’d not hesitate to deploy a weapon.