[QUOTE=Devil;3030628]Startfromyourkneeaboo.[/QUOTE]
Taking that one from your date night vocabulary, are you ?
Really, Rioboo is probably the best choice to convey the message, which is that we want to laugh at people who are like weaboos, except with a Brazilian flavor.
[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;3030624]Like in 10 years. I’m not sure I count that as pretty soon.[/QUOTE]
Are you going by his Ibjjf certificate ? Because he’s never updated past his first time a decade ago. Why pay money for no more privileges in a tournament circuit?
He’s a 6th degree black belt under Relson Gracie. His next rank is Coral. So less than 7 years for sure, but I don’t know precisely how long. Which for coral, is really fucking close. That’s 1 rank away.
Relson out ranks Carlos Jr. And his ibjjf.
Red > Coral
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;3030650]Are you going by his Ibjjf certificate ? Because he’s never updated past his first time a decade ago. Why pay money for no more privileges in a tournament circuit?
He’s a 6th degree black belt under Relson Gracie. His next rank is Coral. So less than 7 years for sure, but I don’t know precisely how long. Which for coral, is really fucking close. That’s 1 rank away.
Relson out ranks Carlos Jr. And his ibjjf.
Red > Coral[/QUOTE]
Phil is registered as a 3rd Degree Black Belt with the IBJJF.
Although based on his time since being promoted to black belt in 2003,
he qualifies under the IBJJF minimum time in grade to be recognized as a 4th Degree Black Belt with the IBJJF.
Relson Gracie is not bound by the rules of the IBJJF, and he can promote as he likes, and he surely knows how to promote someone.
So, if Relson Gracie promoted Phil to 6th degree Black Belt, that is good enough for me.
But, Phil’s website and Facebook page have him listed as a 5th Degree Black Belt under Relson, not a 6th Degree Black Belt under Relson.
Are you sure that Phil was promoted to 6th Degree Black Belt by Relson, and you are not misremembering that in fact, he was promoted to 5th Degree Black Belt by Relson?
If you are remembering correctly, and he was promoted to 6th Degree Black Belt by Relson, then you may want to alert him to update his website, because it still says that he was promoted to 5th Degree Black Belt by Relson.
In any case, it is not Phil’s stripes or belt colors, but rather Phil’s knowledge that makes Phil valuable.
Which is why I find it so amusing when people make a fuss over Ben Askren and Josh Barnett wearing black belts.
My response is always: then you take the belt off of them…As for me, I would be asking them to show the room their favorite moves.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gonzo;3030714]Phil is registered as a 3rd Degree Black Belt with the IBJJF.
Although based on his time since being promoted to black belt in 2003,
he qualifies under the IBJJF minimum time in grade to be recognized as a 4th Degree Black Belt with the IBJJF.
Relson Gracie is not bound by the rules of the IBJJF, and he can promote as he likes, and he surely knows how to promote someone.
So, if Relson Gracie promoted Phil to 6th degree Black Belt, that is good enough for me.
But, Phil’s website and Facebook page have him listed as a 5th Degree Black Belt under Relson, not a 6th Degree Black Belt under Relson.
Are you sure that Phil was promoted to 6th Degree Black Belt by Relson, and you are not misremembering that in fact, he was promoted to 5th Degree Black Belt by Relson?
If you are remembering correctly, and he was promoted to 6th Degree Black Belt by Relson, then you may want to alert him to update his website, because it still says that he was promoted to 5th Degree Black Belt by Relson.
In any case, it is not Phil’s stripes or belt colors, but rather Phil’s knowledge that makes Phil valuable.
Which is why I find it so amusing when people make a fuss over Ben Askren and Josh Barnett wearing black belts.
My response is always: then you take the belt off of them…As for me, I would be asking them to show the room their favorite moves.[/QUOTE]
He’s a 6th Degree under Relson. It says so on his Facebook page. He might have been promoted last month when Relson did a seminar there? If that’s the case he will be a Coral Belt in just shy of 7 years. If anyone is really curious just remind me tomorrow and I will call him and ask him.
https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=558248110&ref=content_filter
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;3030764]He’s a 6th Degree under Relson. It says so on his Facebook page. He might have been promoted last month when Relson did a seminar there? If that’s the case he will be a Coral Belt in just shy of 7 years. If anyone is really curious just remind me tomorrow and I will call him and ask him.
https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=558248110&ref=content_filter[/QUOTE]
Nov 14, 2018 he was promoted to 6th Degree.
Now honest question, not trying stir anything… I take it then that Relson doesn’t follow the IBJJF timeline for black belt promotions(not that he has to). Just according to IBJJF it is 31yrs from black to coral. So 2003+32=2034, which is a good sight different than the mid-2020’s. I’m not fan of the IBJJF, but I am curious.
[QUOTE=ghost55;3030762]Favaelaboo[/QUOTE]
I can dig it.
[QUOTE=Devil;3030777]I was thinking about this. I’m curious about this line of thought. Can you explain further what you mean?[/QUOTE]
In short as much as many might try to deny it, ever since Helio adopted the full color system instead of the three color system he started with(White-Beginner, Blue-Advanced, Dark Blue-Instructor) BJJ has been about rank, and respect in the martial arts world, even the BJJ world, comes with rank.
Take Keenan for example. He is a one stripe Black Belt(maybe going on two). What that means is, even if he starts his own affiliation, he cannot promote anyone to Black Belt and have it be recognized by the larger BJJ world. Why? You need to be a 3 stripe Black Belt to do that. Never mind that he can probably put down 99% of the 3 stripe(or above) black belts in the world. His inherent lack of rank makes for an inherent lack of respect.
Jake Shields has been trying to push “American Jiu Jitsu” for years. Despite his considerable fight and grappling record, his lack of rank makes people look at him and what he is trying to do as a side show.
Until there is a non-Brazillian coral belt(or several even) people are going to inherently feel that BJJ/Submission grappling belongs to the Brazillians.
[QUOTE=Devil;3030784]Specifically, I was wondering if you believe more American coral belts will equal more American world champs. And if so, why?[/QUOTE]
Nope. I believe more Americans training from a younger age will result in more American World Champs. The Brazillian dominance of the sport is soon going to be like the British dominance of any of the sports that originated with them, a thing of memory. Coral belts with large associations will finally make it something other than an import. However I think long before America and Americans are seen as serious innovators in the BJJ world, they will have already conquered the world championships.
[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;3030768]Nov 14, 2018 he was promoted to 6th Degree.
Now honest question, not trying stir anything… I take it then that Relson doesn’t follow the IBJJF timeline for black belt promotions(not that he has to). Just according to IBJJF it is 31yrs from black to coral. So 2003+32=2034, which is a good sight different than the mid-2020’s. I’m not fan of the IBJJF, but I am curious.[/QUOTE]
It used to be 2 years for stripes from Relson . The Ibjjf didn’t even have belt Certs. Or require registration to compete back then, and may have still have been owned by Carlson Gracie. Relson switched to Ibjjf time markers going forward but Phil was obviously grandfathered in on the old time marker for his previous promotions. In all honesty he should have been a black belt in the 90’s… but you know how that goes.
In 2007 when I met Phil he was already a 2 stripe Black.
That’s when he did this cover for Tap Out Magazine.
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;3030789]It used to be 2 years for stripes from Relson . The Ibjjf didn’t even have belt Certs. Or require registration to compete back then, and may have still have been owned by Carlson Gracie. Relson switched to Ibjjf time markers going forward but Phil was obviously grandfathered in on the old time marker for his previous promotions. In all honesty he should have been a black belt in the 90’s… but you know how that goes.
In 2007 when I met Phil he was already a 2 stripe Black.
That’s when he did this cover for Tap Out Magazine.
[/QUOTE]
The Carlos Gracie Jr. IBJJF came into being after I was a black belt.
There was some confusion for many of us,
Who were used to the Confederation of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu,
As to whether it was the Confederation extension organization for countries outside of Brazil,
And whether record in the Confederation was the same.
More confusingly, there had been some satellite U.S. State Federations,
Some previously with some collaboration with Carlos Gracie Jr and/or the Confederation,
and some independent, that we thought might follow the Brazil model of State Federation into a Confederation model,
but ended up just being treated as independent orgs.
It was confusing for the the decade following the nineties as the dust settled.
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;3030790]I think ranking cuts down on the bullshit and allows for lower ranks to compete without being smashed. I believe things regarding rank could use so massaging but it’s a solid principle.[/QUOTE]
There is ample room for the point of view you express as well.
It’s a mixed bag.
[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;3030785]Take Keenan for example. He is a one stripe Black Belt(maybe going on two). What that means is, even if he starts his own affiliation, he cannot promote anyone to Black Belt and have it be recognized by the larger BJJ world. Why? You need to be a 3 stripe Black Belt to do that. Never mind that he can probably put down 99% of the 3 stripe(or above) black belts in the world. His inherent lack of rank makes for an inherent lack of respect.
[/QUOTE]
Under the IBJJF standard, an IBJJF black belt with 2 degrees may sign the black belt graduation certificate for someone that has been promoted to black belt, so long as they meet the minimum (and they are minimums) time requirements for each lower belt.
There are 4008 total Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates:
- 1530 IBJJF 0 Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 684 IBJJF 1st Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 652 IBJJF 2nd Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 665 IBJJF 3rd Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 252 IBJJF 4th Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 105 iBJJF 5th Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 60 IBJJF 6th Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 24 IBJJF 7th Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 22 IBJJF 8th Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 14 IBJJF 9th degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- to carefully document every lower belt rank promotion from a professor of the right rank to promote,
- have an active first aid and cpr certification for every black belt or black belt degree recognition,
- pass a new background check for every black belt or black belt degree promotion,
- and take the safe sport class for every black belt or black belt degree promotion,
- pay $400 for the initial black belt certification,
- and pay $150 for black belt degree promotion certification
[QUOTE=Dr. Gonzo;3031001]Under the IBJJF standard, an IBJJF black belt with 2 degrees may sign the black belt graduation certificate for someone that has been promoted to black belt, so long as they meet the minimum (and they are minimums) time requirements for each lower belt.
There are 4008 total Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates:
- 1530 IBJJF 0 Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 684 IBJJF 1st Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 652 IBJJF 2nd Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 665 IBJJF 3rd Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 252 IBJJF 4th Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 105 iBJJF 5th Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 60 IBJJF 6th Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 24 IBJJF 7th Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 22 IBJJF 8th Degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
- 14 IBJJF 9th degree Black Belts with IBJJF Black Belt certificates
However, for every BJJ Black Belt that goes through the IBJJF Certificate process, which requires one:
- to carefully document every lower belt rank promotion from a professor of the right rank to promote,
- have an active first aid and cpr certification for every black belt or black belt degree recognition,
- pass a new background check for every black belt or black belt degree promotion,
- and take the safe sport class for every black belt or black belt degree promotion,
- pay $400 for the initial black belt certification,
- and pay $150 for black belt degree promotion certification
There are probably 9 to 1 BJJ black belts that either merely get the IBJJF black belt competitor card which only costs $30 per year and a signing IBJJF black belt of 2nd degree or higher, or that don’t register for the IBJJF as a black belt at all.[/QUOTE]
As a for instance, it may be true that I am one of only 252 4th degree Black Belts across the world who have gone through the IBJJF certification process for 4th degree Black Belts in BJJ / Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
But the true number of living, legit, 4th Degree Black Belts in BJJ or Gracie Jiu-Jitsu may be closer to 500 or 1,000, maybe even 2,000, because not all of them register with the IBJJF or bother to send in the paperwork past 2nd degree when they can sign off on people’s paperwork to become IBJJF black belts.
4th Degree is a magic number, however, because then one can not only sign off on black belt promotions, but also sign off on 2nd degree black belt promotions who can then themselves sign off on black belt promotion paperwork without the 4th degree’s own happy ass having to truck over to their gym and grapple every black belt needing promotion, watch every black belt candidate teach, etc, to sign off on their black belt promotion paperwork with integrity.
Because at that point the 2nd degree black belts in your network can then help to pull their weight in that process and sign the IBJJF black belt promotion paperwork themselves.
Which is helpful for scheduling, independence, my getting to now choose to what promotion events or processes I do or do not personally attend in my ripe middle age, etc, etc.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gonzo;3031001]
There are probably 9 to 1 BJJ black belts that either merely get the IBJJF black belt competitor card which only costs $30 per year and a signing IBJJF black belt of 2nd degree or higher, or that don’t register for the IBJJF as a black belt at all.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I have a competitor card and membership. I took the Ref class and got all the CPR and background stuff done.Then I never wrote the check for black belt cert.
It just doesn’t make a lot of sense for me to pay for a belt certificate yet. I am a 1 stripe black belt now so having my belt cert from them doesn’t grant me any privileges in their tournament circuit. In three years I may get my Certificate from them so I can sign black belt certs. For students who wanna compete in the ibjjf.
Even then Phil can sign them so it’s just not a big deal, so I am not sure I will.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gonzo;3031004]As a for instance, it may be true that I am one of only 252 4th degree Black Belts across the world who have gone through the IBJJF certification process for 4th degree Black Belts in BJJ / Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
But the true number of living, legit, 4th Degree Black Belts in BJJ or Gracie Jiu-Jitsu may be closer to 500 or 1,000, maybe even 2,000, because not all of them register with the IBJJF or bother to send in the paperwork past 2nd degree when they can sign off on people’s paperwork to become IBJJF black belts.
4th Degree is a magic number, however, because then one can not only sign off on black belt promotions, but also sign off on 2nd degree black belt promotions who can then themselves sign off on black belt promotion paperwork without the 4th degree’s own happy ass having to truck over to their gym and grapple every black belt needing promotion, watch every black belt candidate teach, etc, to sign off on their black belt promotion paperwork with integrity.
Because at that point the 2nd degree black belts in your network can then help to pull their weight in that process and sign the IBJJF black belt promotion paperwork themselves.
Which is helpful for scheduling, independence, my getting to now choose to what promotion events or processes I do or do not personally attend in my ripe middle age, etc, etc.[/QUOTE]
Its definitely a racket of sorts. I do prefer this way over every dipshit and 10 year old having a black belt.
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;3031009]Agreed. I have a competitor card and membership. I took the Ref class and got all the CPR and background stuff done.Then I never wrote the check for black belt cert.
It just doesn’t make a lot of sense for me to pay for a belt certificate yet. I am a 1 stripe black belt now so having my belt cert from them doesn’t grant me any privileges in their tournament circuit. In three years I may get my Certificate from them so I can sign black belt certs. For students who wanna compete in the ibjjf.
Even then Phil can sign them so it’s just not a big deal, so I am not sure I will.[/QUOTE]
It’s handy to get done before your instructor dies.
Or has a massive falling out with the IBJJF or vice versa.
I have seen both circumstances occur, and then we have a mess to straighten out.
It behooves everybody for the real folks to have their paperwork.
The IBJJF may not be an NGO, but it is the closest thing to it that we have at the moment, as far as third party org at least making an effort to verify ranks, competition history, etc.
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;3031011]Its definitely a racket of sorts. I do prefer this way over every dipshit and 10 year old having a black belt.[/QUOTE]
The way I deal with the racket issue, is I never charge for promotions, I don’t require anybody bring me in for a seminar, or take private lessons from me for money etc.
It’s their time, their competition activities, their teaching ability, I roll with any brown or black I personally sign for, their ability to pass the background check, and generally having earned a rank and skillset that I merely formally recognize.
It is also always helpful when people are complaining they are at too low of a rank because they are making ranks above them tap routinely…
[QUOTE=Dr. Gonzo;3031012]It’s handy to get done before your instructor dies.
Or has a massive falling out with the IBJJF or vice versa.
I have seen both circumstances occur, and then we have a mess to straighten out.
It behooves everybody for the real folks to have their paperwork.
The IBJJF may not be an NGO, but it is the closest thing to it that we have at the moment, as far as third party org at least making an effort to verify ranks, competition history, etc.[/QUOTE]
Yea, I go back and forth with it.
I may not be an Ibjjf Black Belt certificate holder but I am photographed on the Medal Stand every time I show up to their events. Soooooo I am unquestionably a Black belt.
In three years if they are still in business(they likely will be.) I will pay to have my belts certified. Then I shall be a King Maker! Lol but I decided against doing it until I am offered something in return for the hassle and payment. What if I would have paid for my black certificate and my first degree cert. And then next year they close up shop because of embezzlement? I have two worthless certs.
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;3031016]Yea, I go back and forth with it.
I may not be an Ibjjf Black Belt certificate holder but I am photographed on the Medal Stand every time I show up to their events. Soooooo I am unquestionably a Black belt.
In three years if they are still in business(they likely will be.) I will pay to have my belts certified. Then I shall be a King Maker! Lol but I decided against doing it until I am offered something in return for the hassle and payment. What if I would have paid for my black certificate and my first degree cert. And then next year they close up shop because of embezzlement? I have two worthless certs.[/QUOTE]
One of my students is an adult IBJJF pan-american brown belt gold medalist, and a IBJJF masters black belt gold medalist.
He is well above 2nd degree in rank.
I would very much like him to participate in the promotion and paper signing process (to take some of that workload).
But, his response is: “I took their gold medals, why do I need or want a cert?”
And then he smirks and says: “and this way I can’t be asked to participate in the promotion paper work signing…”
If I then try guilting him to take some of the promotion workload, he just responds correctly that: “teaching and coaching at tournaments is volunteerism contribution enough.”
How can I argue with that logic?
Smart Bastard…
[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;3030785]In short as much as many might try to deny it, ever since Helio adopted the full color system instead of the three color system he started with(White-Beginner, Blue-Advanced, Dark Blue-Instructor) BJJ has been about rank, and respect in the martial arts world, even the BJJ world, comes with rank.
Take Keenan for example. He is a one stripe Black Belt(maybe going on two). What that means is, even if he starts his own affiliation, he cannot promote anyone to Black Belt and have it be recognized by the larger BJJ world. Why? You need to be a 3 stripe Black Belt to do that. Never mind that he can probably put down 99% of the 3 stripe(or above) black belts in the world. His inherent lack of rank makes for an inherent lack of respect.
Jake Shields has been trying to push “American Jiu Jitsu” for years. Despite his considerable fight and grappling record, his lack of rank makes people look at him and what he is trying to do as a side show.
Until there is a non-Brazillian coral belt(or several even) people are going to inherently feel that BJJ/Submission grappling belongs to the Brazillians.
Nope. I believe more Americans training from a younger age will result in more American World Champs. The Brazillian dominance of the sport is soon going to be like the British dominance of any of the sports that originated with them, a thing of memory. Coral belts with large associations will finally make it something other than an import. However I think long before America and Americans are seen as serious innovators in the BJJ world, they will have already conquered the world championships.[/QUOTE]
It’s just the history of Judo and judo rank, and the Japanese controlling everything for decades (a century-plus, really), done all over again, but it’s Rio instead of Tokyo, without the complication/Interuption of WW2 and the internment camps (on the American side, at least).
Judo had and has a long term war over rank, who would control rank, control admin stuff, et al puke, especially in the USA. yeah, it will all work out, just look at how many US world/olympic champions there are in Judo from the USA.
As an added complication, BJJ is primarily a commercial operation, which Judo in the US was definitely not. So a guy like Keenan (or maybe even
The only real governing body BJJ has is the IBJJF, and it’s a privately held, for-profit company, worlds away from the whole Olympic Movement thing (which is for-profit disguised at not-for-profit, the irony…).
People act like they are the final arbiters (not you) of BJJ rank, and nothing could be further from the truth, as we all know.
I have a blue belt cert on my wall from Sylvio Behring association, no IBJJF involved. I won’t ever be competing, IBJJF or otherwise, but it’s still legit BJJ rank.
Anyway, what was I writing about ?