Judo for... not judo

Martial Arts Training Forums BJJ and Advanced Grappling Forum
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So judo is lots of fun. I take a big fancy to it for mma mostly because everyone bucks their hips when you clinch with them in the cage. I also see incredible potential against the cage as well.

So that said, would it be more practical to focus on “minor” throws rather than “major” ones? So we’re on the same page I’m talking about attacking the near hip vs the far hip- I’d almost compare it to wrestling as double vs single leg. The idea being that if a perfect ippon is not needed and all takedowns score equally , would your throwing game change at all?

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[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;3003142]Well, obviously, we should disregard the video as fake news,
because Morris kept reaching back.
Everyone knows that is a no-no in wrestling.
Therefore, this could not work.
Nope, fake news.[/QUOTE]

You know it’s funny you say that…������

The things that are “no-no’s” in bjj like headlocks.

No one throws them
So no one practices defending them
As a result no one knows how to get out of them
Then a non bjj guy throws one on them and they end up getting subbed as a result
Funny how that works

3

[QUOTE=Gumby;3003143]You know it’s funny you say that…��

The things that are “no-no’s” in bjj like headlocks.

No one throws them
So no one practices defending them
As a result no one knows how to get out of them
Then a non bjj guy throws one on them and they end up getting subbed as a result
Funny how that works[/QUOTE]
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, as you know, trains that situation regularly.
As well as training every grappling situation with striking as a primary.

4

[QUOTE=Gumby;3003145]I can’t tell you just how many guys I have that give less than two shits about that. It’s all 50/50 this, berimbolo that with an inverted cherry on top.[/QUOTE]
I am physically disabled.

And my game is ridiculously basic, and reductionist.

There was only person in the last ten years that I laid hands on who blew through my disabled basic nonsense game,
and that was Matt Arroyo who picked a tap on me about once every two minutes.

Honorable mention to Vladislav Koulikov because his fusion game was ideally suited for my own non-transitive basics approach and he hit the Russian cowboy on me pretty elegantly, under BJJ rules no less.

But many black belts give up some ridiculous advantage to basic biomechanics by ignoring basic biomechanics.

I hope this post is not perceived as self-aggrandizement, and received as a teaching suggestion that the basics are very worth focusing on.

The limitation of this comment is sample selection.

But a fair number of people I end up being asked to grapple are purse winners or IBJJF world or pan champions at one weight class or other, at brown or black belt division, at adult or masters.

5

[QUOTE=Gumby;3003151]I’m quite in agreement with you. I find it quite surprising how many high level grapplers accept being flat on their back with butterfly hooks in- and perhaps just as surprised as those that don’t take advantage to pass when on top in the same situation[/QUOTE]
Passing the guard is something I valued in my youth, because we used to say that passing the guard was the sign of good Jiu-Jitsu.

I still value passing the guard.

But, in my eld, I have adopted the position that anyone who takes a bottom position should be punished for doing so.

And the top guard is as good as any position to do so.

Especially when strikes are allowed.

But, you know, the ref will usually give you several warnings for being a dick, even when strikes are not allowed.

And all of grappling was about making the other person uncomfortable, and preferably so uncomfortable they wish to go home.

The ground is not your ocean, it is the earth, and I shall use the earth against you, and punish you with it.

I will remove you from the earth at my discretion, and strike you with that terrain, or crunch you up with it.

I will remove your contact points with me if they do not please me.

I will strike you in the face, or other vulnerable spots, or reasonable facsimile thereof,

until I am disqualified or until you decide you would prefer not to grapple me from the bottom again.

6

Two unrelated points:

To the OP:
I usually call big techniques stuff like harai goshi and small techniques stuff like inner reaps. If this is the way you use the term, then necessarily IMO you have to learn one for each type because most techniques that throw uke backwards are small techniques, and it’s uke who chooses in what direction you have to throw him (the only backward big technique I can think of is o soto gari).

Second unrelated point: when roll on the ground, often I end up on my back in some sort of guard, which sucks because my guard is easily passed.
However, as most people at my gym prefer to stay on top and we usually start rolling from kneeling, if I try to keep a top position from the beginning we spend a lot of time pushing and pulling from kneeling, which I think is stupid, so I generally let the other guy take the top position in the hope that sooner or later I will learn a decent guard game.

The reason I do this is because some years ago at a federal course there was an high ranking instructor, specialized in ground grappling, who pointed out that in Judo (but also in self defense) two persons never start ground grappling from a simmetric position both on their knees, it usually happens that one is belly up an the other tries to take the top (which leads to the top/guard situation) or one is belly down and the other tries to take his back, so spending a lot of time in the simmetric kneeling situation is wrong, he advocated starting ground fighting from asimmetric positions (like one turtles or one starts on his back).

Do you think that this is true? Do you start from asymmetric positions when you roll or do you start from both in the same position?

7

Not OP but

[QUOTE=MisterMR;3003180]Second unrelated point: when roll on the ground, often I end up on my back in some sort of guard, which sucks because my guard is easily passed.
However, as most people at my gym prefer to stay on top and we usually start rolling from kneeling, if I try to keep a top position from the beginning we spend a lot of time pushing and pulling from kneeling, which I think is stupid, [/QUOTE]
Yes, it is stupid.

so I generally let the other guy take the top position in the hope that sooner or later I will learn a decent guard game.

You are not going to develop a guard game this way, the guard game has to be taught and drilled.

If your guard is easily passed it’s probable you are not being active and dictating the pace of the match. You need to pull guard in your own terms and start going for sweeps or subs ASAP. When your opponent is defending your sweeping or submission attempts he’s not really setting up passes. Of course he can capitalize on poorly performed sweeps and subs and manage a pass, but usually he will be more worried about non being swept or subbed.

In short: While in guard be proactive, not reactive.

Do you start from asymmetric positions when you roll or do you start from both in the same position?

Usually asymmetric.

8

Regarding Jason, I’ve never personally touched him, and I suspect I should be glad I never did, even if I had ever had the chance.

He was/is an outlier physically, according to two judoka I know who have done Judo with him, on top of his technical ability at Judo. The interplay and relationships between physical superiority and technical ability get complex, particularly at higher levels of competition.

I’ve seen the video Bill posted, and I’ve watched Jason do Judo in person, in competition, from matside. Even when he came back from retirement, he was very impressive, probably even more so physically. He basically imposed his will on the younger guys, and by will I mean physical and mental.

Basically, he did Judo while wrestling, adapted somewhat to the lack of jacket. His Judo was so far advanced beyond his wrestling competitors ability at wrestling, plus his physical abilities, thus he won.

On the question of major vs minor techniques, I say, free your mind from that paradigm. Find what works for your, and allows you to transition to a dominant position, or to a position from which you can further advance position or submit your opponent. As well, look at what you will do if you end up in a less than ideal position upon getting stuffed, or making mistake, etc.

My best ever throw was Kouchi Gari. Yeah, MINOR inside reaping throw. No back turning involved, but land in half guard (back then, term was unknown, position wasn’t). I threw guys so hard I knocked them out, or stunned them so I could pin or armbar. I trained the transitions assiduously, too. I threw more guys for waza ari or ippon with that throw than any other throw. Back then, it was generally considered to be impossible to throw for ippon with the throw, due to the high criteria for ippon. So some refs would just call wazari automatically, even though more than once I just pinned the dude and they didn’t move much for 30 seconds.

9

[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;3003142]Well, obviously, we should disregard the video as fake news,
because Morris kept reaching back.
Everyone knows that is a no-no in wrestling.
Therefore, this could not work.
Nope, fake news.[/QUOTE]
I’ve never heard of this obvious wrestling no-no. Can you cite an authoritative source that says this?
May I also point out that many of these “Judo” throws were put on the video series Dan Gable did back in the 90’s.

[QUOTE=BKR;3003247]Regarding Jason, I’ve never personally touched him, and I suspect I should be glad I never did, even if I had ever had the chance.

He was/is an outlier physically, according to two judoka I know who have done Judo with him, on top of his technical ability at Judo. The interplay and relationships between physical superiority and technical ability get complex, particularly at higher levels of competition.

I’ve seen the video Bill posted, and I’ve watched Jason do Judo in person, in competition, from matside. Even when he came back from retirement, he was very impressive, probably even more so physically. He basically imposed his will on the younger guys, and by will I mean physical and mental.

Basically, he did Judo while wrestling, adapted somewhat to the lack of jacket. His Judo was so far advanced beyond his wrestling competitors ability at wrestling, plus his physical abilities, thus he won.

On the question of major vs minor techniques, I say, free your mind from that paradigm. Find what works for your, and allows you to transition to a dominant position, or to a position from which you can further advance position or submit your opponent. As well, look at what you will do if you end up in a less than ideal position upon getting stuffed, or making mistake, etc.

My best ever throw was Kouchi Gari. Yeah, MINOR inside reaping throw. No back turning involved, but land in half guard (back then, term was unknown, position wasn’t). I threw guys so hard I knocked them out, or stunned them so I could pin or armbar. I trained the transitions assiduously, too. I threw more guys for waza ari or ippon with that throw than any other throw. Back then, it was generally considered to be impossible to throw for ippon with the throw, due to the high criteria for ippon. So some refs would just call wazari automatically, even though more than once I just pinned the dude and they didn’t move much for 30 seconds.[/QUOTE]
Honestly the distinction between Judo and Wrestling(aside from the Jackets) started to fade in the '70s when Judoka started taking up High School wrestling and then went on to be D1 wrestlers with scholarships. One of my early coaches was a Yodan named Bruce Leighty(yes he is a Godan now, possibly higher haven’t kept up), he taught me to fear taking someone down into their guard. Wrestling has taken a lot from Judo, or at least Judoka do well in wrestling. I’m not enough of a wrestling historian to know if those throws were originally part of the catalog.

10

[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;3003251]I’ve never heard of this obvious wrestling no-no. Can you cite an authoritative source that says this?
[/QUOTE]

I was being sarcastic.

Many coaches do have a list of heuristics they teach as dogma, but my own observations is that there are usually many ways to do things,

which is one of the reasons I like this video, because it highlights a stylistic approach to wrestling that is an alternative to other common stylistic approaches, but still looks both effective, and in fact beautiful.

May I also point out that many of these “Judo” throws were put on the video series Dan Gable did back in the 90’s.

[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;3003251]
Wrestling has taken a lot from Judo, or at least Judoka do well in wrestling. I’m not enough of a wrestling historian to know if those throws were originally part of the catalog.[/QUOTE]
Nothing new under the sun and all that.

Fashions on what is orthodox cycles, and rulesets drive stylistic fashions, as people play as they perceive they are paid.

11

[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;3003146]I am physically disabled.

And my game is ridiculously basic, and reductionist.

There was only person in the last ten years that I laid hands on who blew through my disabled basic nonsense game,
and that was Matt Arroyo who picked a tap on me about once every two minutes.

Honorable mention to Vladislav Koulikov because his fusion game was ideally suited for my own non-transitive basics approach and he hit the Russian cowboy on me pretty elegantly, under BJJ rules no less.

But many black belts give up some ridiculous advantage to basic biomechanics by ignoring basic biomechanics.

I hope this post is not perceived as self-aggrandizement, and received as a teaching suggestion that the basics are very worth focusing on.

The limitation of this comment is sample selection.

But a fair number of people I end up being asked to grapple are purse winners or IBJJF world or pan champions at one weight class or other, at brown or black belt division, at adult or masters.[/QUOTE]

The sport jiu jitsu vs self defense jiu jitsu debate is an argument for old dudes. The future belongs to the young guns, and the best of them will be well rounded grapplers, comfortable in multiple styles and in all phases of combat.

12

[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;3003144]Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, as you know, trains that situation regularly.
As well as training every grappling situation with striking as a primary.[/QUOTE]

I seem to remember working on this as a white belt. It was that week we were doing self defense instead of training for wins at Mundials (which, not coincidentally, was also the week before we started working throws).

13

[QUOTE=Devil;3003306]The sport jiu jitsu vs self defense jiu jitsu debate is an argument for old dudes. The future belongs to the young guns, and the best of them will be well rounded grapplers, comfortable in multiple styles and in all phases of combat.[/QUOTE]

The future is now.

Damien Maia

Vinny Magalhaes

Dos Anjos

Roger Gracie

Rodolpho Viera

Travis Stevens

Buchecha

Raphael Lovato Jr.

Gordon Ryan

Garry Tonnon

Keenan

Andre Glavao

Cyborg

14

[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;3003251]I’ve never heard of this obvious wrestling no-no. Can you cite an authoritative source that says this?
May I also point out that many of these “Judo” throws were put on the video series Dan Gable did back in the 90’s.

Honestly the distinction between Judo and Wrestling(aside from the Jackets) started to fade in the '70s when Judoka started taking up High School wrestling and then went on to be D1 wrestlers with scholarships. One of my early coaches was a Yodan named Bruce Leighty(yes he is a Godan now, possibly higher haven’t kept up), he taught me to fear taking someone down into their guard. Wrestling has taken a lot from Judo, or at least Judoka do well in wrestling. I’m not enough of a wrestling historian to know if those throws were originally part of the catalog.[/QUOTE]

It’s all pretty much multiple false dichotomies.

Bruce Leighty, I’ve heard of.

15

[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;3003312]The future is now.

Damien Maia

Vinny Magalhaes

Dos Anjos

Roger Gracie

Rodolpho Viera

Travis Stevens

Buchecha

Raphael Lovato Jr.

Gordon Ryan

Garry Tonnon

Keenan

Andre Glavao

Cyborg[/QUOTE]

There are some, for sure. I just think the game will continue to grow and there are more grapplers making this their sport from a young age. More opportunities for success and more opportunities to learn it all instead of just pieces.

Also, I’m not sure how you left Werdum and Jacare off your list, but whatevs.

Side note…surprisingly, despite the fact that Travis Stevens is a terrifying human being, I’ve heard at least one interview of him spouting some wacky ideas about self defense.

And Keenan? I’d have to argue with that one. He’s awesome but I don’t think he’s spent much time giving a shit about self defense.

Just to be clear - I’m not questioning Travis’ or Keenan’s ability to defend themselves at all. I’m just saying they’re probably not who you’d want teaching you self defense because it isn’t their area of real expertise.