I like to pretend I know what I'm talking about

I started training Western Boxing for one reason: instead of being a jack of all trades, why not be a specialist?

My question is if, in your experience, pure Western Boxing has been adequate against Kickboxers in the gym or do you just get the shit kicked out of you and cant glose the gap?

How effective is boxing among the striking arts on it’s own. We know it beats the crap out of Karate point fighters and Taekwondo guys but that’s because those arts are inferior on so many levels and the talent pool stinks.

Depends on the kickboxer. Depends on the gloves. Depends on the rules. Depends on the ring size.

Too many variables to say. Also you say it “beats the crap out of Karate point fighters and TKD” but I would refer you to the numerous UFC champions with high level TKD experience in their background. I would further refer you to one Lyoto Machida for an example of a Karate fighter that did all right for himself.

Please clarify the situation for further input.

My old sanshou coach’s favorite counter to most types of kicks was stepping forward with a right cross to the face. Works pretty well, if you manage it when they’re pivoting or pendulum stepping. Could a boxer do it? Sure, but only if they’re used to seeing those kicks coming at them. I’ll bet a decent boxer could develop that skillset pretty quickly.

I want to know both under above the waist rules and Muay Thai, how well it matches up between middle of the road athletes that most likely duke it out in a gym. Is it possible to glose the gap and steamroll them with punches?

Machida won several bouts with his grappling background mixed in. He did not beat Sam Greco in the stand-up, for instance.

And he did not face boxers or that many high level strikers in the UFC either…

It depends on how good they are with punches, IMHO.

EDIT: I mean: it depends on how good the kickers are with punches, since it isn’t all that obvious that the boxer can always “steamroll” other strikers with punches.

If leg kicks are allowed, the answer is generally no. Just go watch Rick Roufus vs that random Thai dude.

[QUOTE=ghost55;2954261]If leg kicks are allowed, the answer is generally no. Just go watch Rick Roufus vs that random Thai dude.[/QUOTE]

But people wear leg protectors in clubs

Isn’t it more relevant how good the kickboxers boxing defense and transition game is, rather than pure punching ability?

I would like to hear from a boxer, how he felt about it. Any boxers in here?

[QUOTE=Heuristic;2954333]I would like to hear from a boxer, how he felt about it. Any boxers in here?[/QUOTE]

I go to a boxe gym once or twice a week (rarely thrice) and I mostly do physical exercises and technical training, I spar very rarely.
Does it count?

IMHO: if a boxer and a kickboxer, neither of them a champ, fight each other:

a) If we are speaking of a no-rules brawl they will likely clinch and end up crappling very soon (specially since the boxer is forced to always close the distance to avoid kicks);
b) If we are speaking of a fight with some rules, well it depends on the rules, but I suppose that if the rules are close to that of the kickboxer he would be advantaged.

There are many possible differences in rules above kicks allowed or not: take this example of a match between boxe and savate (that is a form of kickboxing in the end) where kicks were allowed but the boxer dominated, apparently because the savateur was used to a sort of “medium contact” rules:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=118954&highlight=boxe+savate

American Kickboxing rules had to add 8 kick minimum because boxers entered and dominated. So I disagree that the kickboxer is the favorite in above the waist rules…

Granted, alot of the original kickboxers were pure Karatekas, but I still say a modern Kickboxer only allowed to kick above the waist, will be get smash ed by a boxer

[QUOTE=Heuristic;2954351]American Kickboxing rules had to add 8 kick minimum because boxers entered and dominated. So I disagree that the kickboxer is the favorite in above the waist rules…

Granted, alot of the original kickboxers were pure Karatekas, but I still say a modern Kickboxer only allowed to kick above the waist, will be get smash ed by a boxer[/QUOTE]

I was thinking about exactly this last night, however, I think the problem was not boxing vs kickboxing, but professional boxers vs karateka of the 70s and 80s. Boxers were, of course, full time professional athletes competing for potential millions, kickboxers were not training or competing on anything like that level. A better contest would have been similar level pro boxers and pro MT fighters.

Muay Thai guys are not exactly known for their high kicks . and theyre likely slower kickers (more power though) … I think an equally skilled hard punching boxer will be the favourite.

If the boxer is a Mayweather-finesse type boxer, I bet on the Muay Thai guy though in above the waist rules set with no clinch

I think it also depends on the style of training the kickboxer has undertaken. My gym teaches Muay Thai style kickboxing, but a large portion of the teaching also incorporates a lot of punches that are closer to western boxing than traditional kickboxing. So I think it also depends - because it may be possible the kickboxer may know all of the movements the boxer does, plus kicking. In which case logically you would assume the kickboxer would win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMhzzlEiDMI

Interesting as this was before my time and an exhibition bout but its Leon Splnks vs Joe Lewis

If the boxer is clueless how to defend them, leg kicks from a mobile kickboxer can end it. But it takes time.

I watched a fascinating late night fight a hell of a long time ago no idea who the fighers were, but one was Russian 6’7, 260ish, one was a Dutch Trained kickboxer, 6’2ish, 230. Initially the kickboxer tried to box with the bigger guy, and knocked down in the first. Brutal punch, but he recovered and finished the round.

In round 2, the kickboxer just kept moving, and leg kicking the hell out of the boxer, who had no idea how to check a kick. At first the kickboxer was throwing them conservatively, with a quick retraction, then slipped out.

By round 4, the kickboxer was just teeing off as hard as he could, and it was brutal. Not even a retraction, but burying the kicks in the boxer’s thigh will fully committed penetration. Boxer tried desperately to jump out of the way, but could barely walk.

A few rounds later, the kickboxer landed one more, boxer went down, and could not get up. He tried like hell, but he was totally dead-legged, and could no longer walk.

It was an amazing fight, and really impressed upon me the effectiveness of leg kicks.

Bob Sapp bullrushed Ernesto Hoost, one of the greatest kickboxers of all time, with wild swinging punches, and beat him twice with the exact same strategy. How on earth would Hoost survive a prime Mike Tyson if he can’t handle Sapp? I think K1 fighters are overrated.

Why would a Muay Thai club teach punching with Western Boxing stances? You wrote close to Western Boxing.

[QUOTE=Heuristic;2954365]Muay Thai guys are not exactly known for their high kicks . and theyre likely slower kickers (more power though) … I think an equally skilled hard punching boxer will be the favourite.

If the boxer is a Mayweather-finesse type boxer, I bet on the Muay Thai guy though in above the waist rules set with no clinch[/QUOTE]

You are so fuckin ignorant I don’t even know where to begin. How about some Muay Thai?

//youtu.be/yQffUsac-DI

//youtu.be/kCrPFdh9v-8

//youtu.be/1E4HTa4FgjU

//youtu.be/u5DLDe8bIeU

Less than four minutes I found 5 videos containing hundreds of high kicks executed, lightning fast, by Muay Thai guys in full contact fights. Stop making an ass out of yourself dude. Muay Thai is known for it excellent punching which is very similar to boxing technique wise and fast powerful kicks from the ankles to the head.

Most of the reason for their success is their training methods, constant competing and testing, and it not being a bunch of pussies who play at TKD and think they are fighters. They actually fight.

You have mentioned your transition from ITF TKD to Kickboxing.
What is your record? Where do you train kickboxing?