Gracie JiuJitsu and BJJ

[xlins]

Well, is there any difference between Gracie JiuJitsu and Brazilian JiuJitsu?
I think that they are two names for the same martial art…
Thanks

PS: dunno if it’s right here or in newbietown…

[KO_d_N_DOA]

Are you a bullfighter? Here come the bulls.

[pauli]

you really, REALLY need to use the search.

edit: everyone needs to read this post: No BS Martial Arts - View Single Post - BJJ Grandmaster

[cyrijl]

Search function plz.

[jnp]

Somebody find Yrkoon9’s post about this.I can’t do it from my phone.

[pauli]

already done, linked it above. i shall now quote it, for emphasis.

@yrkoon9. LISTEN TO THIS MAN.

This is going to be a semi-long post illustrating why I THINK GJJ is different and inferior to BJJ.

Okay, we all know that Rorion is a money-grubbing loser who bamboozle the rest of his family out of the market with his trademark. So what we have is Helio/Rorion & Royce teaching GJJ - the trademarked and authentic one of a kind ‘REAL’ brazilian jiu jitsu. As we all remember from the carefull marketing on Rorions part Helio ‘created’ GJJ and was undefeated blah blah blah. Well, we know that is bullshit. One of his own students beat him, and Carlson was forced to come after and whoop the guy. We also know that Kimura beat Helio. We also know that Helio didn’t ‘create’ anything. He watched his brothers and trained JJ, modifying some of the techniques. He didn’t create a damn thing. So at this point GJJ is on shaky ground. It was being sold and marketed in a deceptive manner.

BJJ on the other hand is the generic term that everyone is forced to use who is not authorized to teach the official ‘GJJ’. You have a whole other lineage like Carlson who teaches basically the same stuff. It gets a little murky as the Gracie family descends and people train with different teachers.

But what exactly is the difference? I’ll tell you the difference. GJJ IS INFERIOR TO BJJ. WHAT?!?!?!

Yes, thats right. INFERIOR! You want to know why? Because Helio/Rorion hide the art to people outside the family. Yes. Its the same old bullshit bullshido that happens in other arts. They teach the most basic shit and keep knowledge from their students. Now Im sure that ‘someone’ is going to come up and ‘defend’ the GJJ clan. Let me shut you down right from the start.

1. The torrence academy was notorious for hiding their stuff. My proof of this was the exodus of some of their students. For example, Marc Laimon and Ethan Milius bailed on them and went to the Beverly Hills Jiu Jitsu Club to train. They were living testimonials to the BS that was going on. They said it themselves, they were actually being held back. He and Marc both got sick of the games Rorion would play at Torrence. Over the years I have met many like them. They didn’t know what they were missing until they went elsewhere.

2. At BHJJC we had many students from GJJ Torrence who would come to train with us. Multi-stripe blues were STILL trying to pass the guard with one arm in and one arm out. Like fucking newbies they would get triangled over and over and over with no clue. HELLO YOU ARE BEING TAUGHT SHIT THAT SUCKS. Marc and Ethan both laughed at this sort of thing. Their ‘technique’ was so basic and lame that white belts were tapping out Torrence vets. It was people like Marc and Ethan who broke out of that archaic grappling to evolve into something greater. They experimented with the De La Riva guard, which was conveniently absent at Torrence. They explored leg locks which had previously been taboo. etc etc.

3. There are many many many instances where Rorion would chide his family for ‘showing too much’, for example when Renzo/Kukuk came out with their video series in the late 90’s Rorion tripped out and said they were showing too much. Can you believe that shit? Showing too much? You can look at Rorions own tape series and see what lame crap they were trying to sell. The same dopey moves done in several variations. No depth or substance - and yes, even the one arm in and one arm out guard pass.

4. GJJ’s success was built on Royce’s success in the UFC. It was rhetorically repeated over and over that GJJ is the source and everything else was crap. You had to learn from them or you weren’t learning the ‘real’ stuff. In the mean time, the ‘other’ stuff had begun to infiltrate the US and the GJJ myth was beginning to be dismantled. Carlson’s guys were handling everyone. Royce even lost to Wallid. Suddenly the myth was shattered. It was possible that there was a better method of teaching, or other teachers who could be better?!?! The US became flooded with QUALITY teachers and their students began to dominate. Look at the Machado’s for example.

5. The proof is in the pudding. As BJJ competitions began to flourish you saw the emergence of a new breed of fighter. Cross trained. Specialized. All kinds. But in the BJJ tournaments, the GJJ guys found themselves out of their element. They were losing badly. Teachers who were not afraid to show more started to develop quality competitors who schooled the GJJ boys. Even today, you find that they get owned when they try to compete. You won’t see many GJJ reps at the podium. So you know what they did? They shrivelled up, and started their ‘own’ competitions. Open to THEIR students. Does that sound a lot like some other McDojo’s of the past? They even began to change the rules because, GASP, people were beating them at their own game.

6. BJJ encourages cross training while GJJ are trying to remain purists. Only recently have they begun to break this mold and are far behind the BJJ guys who recognized the importance of crosstraining. Another good comparison would be Carlson’s guys who began boxing to improve their vale tudo game. Nowadays the GJJ fighters are playing catch up. They tried to remain purists too long. Sound like McDojo closed mindedness to me. Case in point Genki v Royler. Pure GJJ v crosstrained BJJ type. There really isn’t much of a comparison.

Even in the ‘pure’ GJJ grappling style they have not evolved. Other BJJ people are continuing to develop and evolve the art. They recognize the importance of adding wrestling and sambo and judo. For example - again I will mention Wallid v Royce. Modern day BJJ meets traditional GJJ. GJJ loses.

So what exactly am I saying? I am saying that GJJ and BJJ are not the same. The terms are not interchangeable. I am also saying that GJJ is inferior to BJJ. I recognize that this might provoke some knee jerk reactionaries that may feel challenged. I would liken this to many McDojo practictioners responses when confronted with reality. They become angry and refuse to accept what many have already realized. Now this is MY opinion, and like any opinion it is biased. It is probably not 100% accurate in every word and detail. But by and large I think the information I have provided should convince people that the reality is BJJ has evolved, and GJJ is trying to cling to its glory days as it basked in the public’s ignorance. I urge you, if you disagree, to go see for yourself. Compare and try to make an objective decision on the subject. I think you will find that what I have said is true. BJJ > GJJ.

[Punisher]

It’s sad but what Yrkoon9 said is still going on.

In 2006, I spent an entire year training the local Rickson Gracie affiliate. The experience was underwhelming to say the least. There were some good guys there, but almost no one seemed to have any interest in helping anyone else get any better. At first I blamed myself for not learning anything, and tried harder. I still didn’t get any better so I quit.

Fast forward to 2008. I find out that two of the best guys had broken off from my old school and dedicated themselves to running things the “right way, Rickson’s way”. Better yet, the school they opened was right down the street from mine.

I’d been training grappling on my own and decided to Rickson’s Association another try. My current coach who has a black in Judo and a BJJ blue belt under Pedro Sauer was familiar with the Rickson Gracie Association rank requirements and said I was more than ready to take the “blue stripe” test and with proper training get my blue belt easily in less than a year.

When I called the guys up to arrange training, I was up front and honest about I was looking for. I told them I had trained with them at the previous school, what I had been doing since, and where I thought I was in my grappling training. I was also up front about the fact that I owned the karate school down the street. I told them that because of my teaching schedule it would be difficult for me to attend their regular group classes and inquired about setting up some weekly private lessons to lay out a plan to get me to blue belt, monitor my progress, and eventually evaluate me for ranking.

I was disappointed that the response I got was a mix of bullshido and Rickson nuthuggery. I was first told that I as owner of another martial arts school, that RGJJA rules and regulations prevented them from teaching me, at least in the manner I was suggesting. I was then told that even if I they were able to secure permission from Rickson to train me, that all of my previous training, including the stuff I learned at the other Rickson Affiliate, would be useless, I would have to start all over, and there was no way to get my blue in 12 months. His reason was that Rickson was evolving GJJ so much that what I learned before would be obsolete. I loved how he was able to say this with complete confidence without seeing me roll or rolling with me himself.

This was two weeks ago and I still haven’t heard whether or not I am “worthy” to train at the school. The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. If word does come down from the mountain that it is ok to share some of the secrets with me, I’m not sure I’ll take them up on the offer.

[Ryno]

Damn Punisher, that is terrible. What the fuck do they say about “Proof in the pudding?” I mean if they are skilled and can clearly demonstrate this fact as well as being good instructors, what the fuck do they have to worry about? Good styles with good instructors usually don’t hurt for business in the slightest.

Shit, in both my FMA club and in my Sombo club, we encourage people to check out other groups and clubs. In most cases, the students end up back with us. But at least they know what they are getting into, and can objectively evaluate what they’d be learning with us vs. what other clubs have to offer.

Even when students end up going with another club, we often stay friendly with them, they drop by to cross-train, or whatever. Who gives a fuck? I mean, if they live down at the south end of town where there are other good judo clubs, Gracie Barra, etc., it may just mean a commute to the north end would be a pain in the ass. That’s cool and totally understandable. And if they happen to move back up north, they may very well end up back with us because of our nice friendly disposition and hard training.

Why the fuck people play this silly political gamesmanship is beyond me. I guess when people start thinking more about money than training partners, shit can get a little fucked up.

But damn…

[dokomoy]

One of the worst parts of Punisher’s story is that Rickson left Rorions school because of all the bullshit that was going on there.

[Domite]

Is that true of this place as well?

http://www.renzogracie.com/

[Ryno]

Renzo’s club is very well regarded from what I’ve heard. But then again, I thought he wasn’t legally allowed to teach “Gracie” Jiujitsu, as Rorion owns that trademark and would probably sue him. Even though he is a Gracie, he teaches BJJ, not GJJ.

[Domite]

Gotcha.

[Yojimbo1717]

@Punisher

It’s sad but what Yrkoon9 said is still going on.

In 2006, I spent an entire year training the local Rickson Gracie affiliate. The experience was underwhelming to say the least. There were some good guys there, but almost no one seemed to have any interest in helping anyone else get any better. At first I blamed myself for not learning anything, and tried harder. I still didn’t get any better so I quit.

Fast forward to 2008. I find out that two of the best guys had broken off from my old school and dedicated themselves to running things the “right way, Rickson’s way”. Better yet, the school they opened was right down the street from mine.

I’d been training grappling on my own and decided to Rickson’s Association another try. My current coach who has a black in Judo and a BJJ blue belt under Pedro Sauer was familiar with the Rickson Gracie Association rank requirements and said I was more than ready to take the “blue stripe” test and with proper training get my blue belt easily in less than a year.

When I called the guys up to arrange training, I was up front and honest about I was looking for. I told them I had trained with them at the previous school, what I had been doing since, and where I thought I was in my grappling training. I was also up front about the fact that I owned the karate school down the street. I told them that because of my teaching schedule it would be difficult for me to attend their regular group classes and inquired about setting up some weekly private lessons to lay out a plan to get me to blue belt, monitor my progress, and eventually evaluate me for ranking.

I was disappointed that the response I got was a mix of bullshido and Rickson nuthuggery. I was first told that I as owner of another martial arts school, that RGJJA rules and regulations prevented them from teaching me, at least in the manner I was suggesting. I was then told that even if I they were able to secure permission from Rickson to train me, that all of my previous training, including the stuff I learned at the other Rickson Affiliate, would be useless, I would have to start all over, and there was no way to get my blue in 12 months. His reason was that Rickson was evolving GJJ so much that what I learned before would be obsolete. I loved how he was able to say this with complete confidence without seeing me roll or rolling with me himself.

This was two weeks ago and I still haven’t heard whether or not I am “worthy” to train at the school. The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. If word does come down from the mountain that it is ok to share some of the secrets with me, I’m not sure I’ll take them up on the offer.

You’re talking about Ground Works aren’t you? Weren’t they originally a Dave Terry school, and that’s how they were an Rickson affiliate?

[3moose1]

Lol i love my jits coach.

We talked about cross training, and he supports it. He’s coming with me to a SAMBO seminar on saturday.

Find a Saulo Riberio school

[Punisher]

@Yojimbo1717

You’re talking about Ground Works aren’t you? Weren’t they originally a Dave Terry school, and that’s how they were an Rickson affiliate?

Yeah. I trained a year a Dave’s and didn’t get what I was looking for. Dave is a nice guy and a really good instructor, but his staff just seemed interested in tapping me as many times and as painfully as possible, so I eventually quit. Apparently Dave and Rickson had a falling out, either shortly before or after the GW guys branched out on their own. GW is Sacramento’s only Rickson Gracie school.

The GW crew were the best thing about training at Dave’s and I had high hopes for their school. I extended them the same invite to train at my place as I gave you and basically got a semi-polite “thanks, but no thanks”.

Rereading the email exchange between GW and I, I’m afraid I might not be giving them a fair shake. The tone seemed to be more like “I need to check with Rickson first to make sure it is ok” than “You are not worthy, how dare do you ask for our secrets”.

I guess only time will tell.

[Animosimony]

UFC 95
Brock Lesner vs Helio Gracie

[Skillful]

xlins,

I see this dichotomy a little bit differently. Gracie Jiu Jitsu is what we learn/practice/train to use in A. Self-defense, B. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (a sport with the gi, our bread and butter), C. Submission Grappling (a/k/a No-Gi BJJ) and D. Vale Tudo (No Holds Barred/MMA).

The Gracie Jiu Jitsu doesn’t change, but the rules do, hence we sometimes need to adapt our game to fit the rules (i.e. not playing X-guard in a cage fight)

The fact that Rorion has made it difficult for Gracie Jiu Jitsu academies to call themselves Gracie Jiu Jitsu academies has certainly clouded the issue, and Yrkoon’s quoted post explains this in fantastic detail. Rorion’s also greatly responsible for the popularity of Brazilian/Gracie Jiu Jitsu in America (via starting the UFC to showcase it, etc…). It’s definitely not my intent to bash him or anyone else in this post.

Just remember that the original Academia Gracie is the one in Rio De Janeiro(http://www.academiagracie.com.br), not Torrance, CA(http://www.gracieacademy.com).

[Punisher]

@Skillful

I see this dichotomy a little bit differently. Gracie Jiu Jitsu is what we learn/practice/train to use in A. Self-defense, B. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (a sport with the gi, our bread and butter), C. Submission Grappling (a/k/a No-Gi BJJ) and D. Vale Tudo (No Holds Barred/MMA).

This a great point. As owner of a school that primarily focuses on self-defense I have repeatedly asked GJJ/BJJ instructors to visit my school and teach a seminar showing how their art is truly meant to be used “in the street”. Unfortunately no one has been willing or able to grant my request as most schools in my area seem to focus almost exlusively on the BJJ, while neglecting the SD, no gi, and MMA aspects.

BJJ is a wonderful sport and art, but my interests and training priorities at this point are SD, MMA, no gi, then BJJ. I would love to find a school with that type of focus.

The most fun and benefit I got while training a Dave Terry’s school was the self-defense class they taught one time a week. No gi tops, start on your feet, attacker attacks, defender clinchs, throws, obtains superior position, then applies lock/choke if necessary. Cool shit, and very similar to what I do every single day at my school. That class gave me what I wanted and helped me bridge the gap between my BJJ and Kenpo and integrate them together. I just wish they did it more often.

(Cue "GJJ self-defense is simply McDojo style Hapkido/TKD/Kenpo and is not “real BJJ” rant by some asshole here)

[KO_d_N_DOA]

Okay Punisher, I’ll step up…

At BJJ occationally they have self defence class. It looks similar to my JJJ techniques, however so little time is spent on this aspect, that even the senior students were awkward and clumbsy and like fish out of water.

Their skill level would be around a first year level JJJ, about the same as our seniour grades going to train BJJ. The BB is great, but has other JJJ grades, so I do not know how much is from the BJJ style, and how much is his own. To be fare I have never seen a Self defense class at Judo either. (4 years of Judo)

[mrgoshthereturn]

BJJ schools are cheaper to attend than GJJ schools.

GJJ still has a great competititve record and the Gracie boys are lethal groundfighters (look at their adcc and mma records) but not that much better that they can beat mma fighters that know what to expect.

I think GJJ guys train hard and have a seroius work ethic but BJJ is more flexible (specially 10th planet-forgive the pun!)