This thread is about BJJ, man, none of those combat sports apply. We’re talking about a girl learning BJJ for self defense, and I get that heel hooks are a powerful tool but that is not the point.
Once again, you argued strongly that heel hooks are high percentage atomic self defense weapons. The fallacy is your assertion that they are fight enders in the self defense sense, something you can’t prove because there’s no body of evidence that fights outside any arena are often won by heel hook or beyond. Even pro combat sport matches persist beyond broken bones and maimed limbs, so why would you feel so strongly that they are “Fight enders” in the self defense sense. In tournaments the loser just decides they’ve had enough or the medic stops the fight.
In a life or death situation? Somebody with a broken leg can still strangle the life out of someone. Shock and adrenaline factors are real. There’s an old Spartacus gladiator training trope about this. The danger posed by an injured attacker, if you know what I’m referring to, is still very real when the stakes are higher.
I even posted earlier in the thread some decent BJJ authorities saying the same thing. So take it or leave it, “extremely disingenuous”.
So because the Heel Hook is taught at a BJJ school it some how isn’t applicable?
So if someone learns a heel hook at Victory, 50/50, Renzo Gracies, or any number of other places its some how not valid?
In the context of useful self defense mechanisms? Not as applicable as I think you think it would be. You’re basing your entire argument off their success in tournaments, but the logical fallacy is that is a different type of success outcome than in a self defense situation.
We haven’t even gotten to the legal ramifications of breaking an assailant’s bones or hyperextending an arm violently, which plays into self defense vs. what’s legally safe to do on a BJJ mat.
Yeah, I never know what I’m talking about. I got it.
Incorrect, I am basing it off of the ability to stay away from strikes, the ability to apply to bigger stronger people from bottom including someone standing over you.
I am basing it off of actually learning and using the techniques with live opponents of various sizes shapes and physical capabilities.
Including being heel hooked by smaller people including women and not being in a position where I could retaliate with punches or kicks.
I understand the off balancing, the framing, the distance control, and other control parts of the positions.
So no I am not basing it off of tournament success I am basing it off the understanding of the various leg lock systems.
You are projecting your lack of understanding of BJJ for self defense
You are projecting your lack of understanding of leg lock positions
You are projecting your lack of understanding of what breaking pressure of what an inside heel hook does to someone
This entire post is an appeal to your own authority and personal anecdotes. Nice try, but it’s all theory.
Regardless of our relative skill levels in anything, your argument is falsified prima facie, because what you said from the first post is just not true.
I’ll even go one further and say that this is an extremely disingenuous statement.
Most of what you said is fine,
BUT this, If you can’t walk, you can’t fight.
A Heel Hook brought to breaking pressure is going to keep someone from walking.
Literally it is about the most fight ending joint lock their is.[/I]
So your argument is what?
That someone can walk after a heel hook is brought to breaking pressure?
That someone can fight(with someone that knows enough grappling to heel hook someone) without being able to walk?
That their is another Joint lock that is more fight ending? (there are they are called spine locks but they are much harder to deploy)
My argument is that you over-generalized by a large margin.
Like I said I was skeptical about your claim and we have a LOT of evidence out there of which techniques are good in the SD/BJJ range outside the mats, and heel hooks… there is just no evidence out there. We know what works in real unscripted fights that overlaps with MMA. We have countless videos of that, solid hits, throws, chokes. What we don’t have is anything out there about anybody using a heel hook in a SD situation to escape, subdue an attacker, etc. I know I’ve looked for it, for the purposes of this thread.
I’ll be honest, I still get the sense from a lot of BJJ players (and have for years) that certain techniques become sacred cows to people.
You never had to convince me they are effective. But it was really funny that you did.
Unfortunately like I said, Devil convinced me on this issue, which isn’t easy. Sleep on it.
I mean… lets be realistic about that, be specific how you are going to continue to grapple from a heel hook position where someone has gotten breaking pressure on you.
Tell me how you are going to say re-engage someone that just broke your leg from backside 50/50?
Especially if you know they stand up and walk away.
Are you arguing that Helio Gracie was going to keep fighting effectively after his arm was broken?
It seems like you have never had or seen a serious joint fracture. You will probably claim otherwise, but nothing you said indicates you understand in any way what a serious impairment that is. Every movement hurts. I know, believe me.
Yes yes, you can not give up all you want, but with a broken knee you are not going to do a lot of good. Especially in the self defense context where I can then stand up and walk/run the fuck away.
The person who breaks someones knee is under no obligation to continue engaging someone. They have the ability to retreat, and retreat well.
Doesn’t matter, the person could be high as fuck on PCP and not feel anything. The damage you would do by going far past the tapping point on a heel hook makes it damn difficult to stand by the damage done not the pain that would be experienced. The breaking mechanism here is causing the shin to twist in place while preventing the knee from moving. While the typical sport injury is either the Anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) or the Medial collateral ligament (MCL) at tapping pressure, if one where to really give it the juice you can cause separation in all 4 ligaments. Causing nothing to be there in order to stabilize the knee. You know like you would do in this hypothetical “Life or death” situation.
There are reasons why this move is much maligned. It can be devastating when applied and doesn’t take much force to tear one ligament, when properly locked the range of motion needed to do that is very small. Yet their is a ton of negative space to move ones body through in order to cause even greater levels of damage.