A doctor has an opportunity to do a less good job or to divert resources to someone. Which can kill indirectly.
This is a ridiculous position to take. People who are sick are under duress and vulnerable to exploitation. Furthermore physicians and other healthcare workers have been known to kill and sexually exploit vulnerable people that they have taken advantage of to silence them which is why there is such a precedence for severely punishing anyone who takes such liberties even if they were under the misguided belief that somehow they are the exception instead of a predator too cowardly, weak or selfish to understand the gravity of what they have done.
Furthermore, patients need to trust their doctor’s advice so that they follow through with necessary treatments to save their lives. How can they do so if they believe the doctor may be trying to seduce them? It’s the bad old days of bad medicine all over again. Sometimes doctors get things wrong despite their many years of training but I’d rather they not be incentivized to abuse that authority by the lure of easy sexual gratification in a consequence free environment.
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People having sex with other people at the Dojo tends to cause drama and bullshit for other people trying to train - and training is the purpose of the dojo.
When instructors do it, it often causes even more drama and bullshit.
And there are all kinds of real and perceived conflicts of interests.
Now, there are many cases as well, of people meeting their future spouses at the dojo.
However, that causes drama and bullshit, too, in many cases.
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Outside of sex work, it’s unethical to have sex with a client. Even worse when the power imbalance is out of whack, like in combat sports/martial arts instructions.
Not a good idea, nope, deep doo doo.
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Clearly if someone falls in lust with their patient/student or Dr/instructor the ethical thing to do is discontinue the professional relationship
Although that does not protect us from the psycho Dr’s waiting to kill us
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The ethical thing to do is never act on it and do everything you can to avoid any such situation again at any cost to the self.
Mathew 18:8-9
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast those from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it also from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
(edit: When the Greek Christians wrote these words they undoubted were almost certainly not speaking about a literal hell or fire.) Greek orthodox scholarly research is a great resource for decoding the new testament correctly. It’s clear that some authors were extremely keen on creating a lasting good that would help people. Clearly, not everyone shared that sentiment.
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I’m not trying to turn this into a question to question arguement, more trying to work out what people find the line to be that seperates it.
I suspect it comes down to the main issue of many things that would make anything predatory: power dynamics.
That’s stupid…if you’re teaching adults then you’re both adults, unless there’s force involved it’s consensual
It may be unethical but not predatory…geez, this SJ shits getting out of hand
Unethical behavior behavior often is predatory behavior. That’s not social justice, it’s common fucking sense.
Should adult school teachers be able to pursue relationships with 18 year old students? Fuck no.
Should college professors be able to fuck students? Fuck no.
Not only that but the kind of legal shit you are pulling down on yourself as a proprietor by having sex a student for anything is just begging for a lawsuit and charges if some girl feels like she was sexually assaulted during her training and then the court finds other women say the instructor had sexual contact with other students and a history of making romantic advances towards them?
Welcome to bankruptcy and the sex offender registry.
It’s not just predatory, it’s also extremely risky for any organization of any size to have memebers in leadership positions engaging in this kind of activity.
Oh, the palpable irony.
It’s not even the same thing, you’re going to a gym by choice and paying to be there. You’re acting like they’re not consenting adults.
And no again it’s not predatory, a girl can be any age n say she was assaulted lol, where tf have you been…they’ll likely fire the teacher idk about sue, who’d sue?
The students will say what, we had consensual sex? Dude get your head out your ass
Ok…let me clarify
I’m just saying it’s not illegal
It’s unethical but predatory? That’s a bit much
There’s nuance that would take longer to explain than the length of these relationships. Gordon hit on some of the points, already.
Same thing for college, trade schools, and private highschools after the age it’s legal to drop out.
The argument for sexual harassment can be made in any professional venue and if some asshole is treating the students like his own personal buffet he’s a fucking scumbag and he’s displaying dismal personal judgement.
In the real world it’s a shit thing to do and shouldn’t be tolerated in a professional establishment. It’s bad for business, it’s bad for morale, it’s risky for the owner, it is completely unethical and young women don’t need another guy treating them alike a steak in an environment where people are learning how to fight. It’s a distraction for the other students at best and possibly criminal leaving the business scrambling for a lawyer at worst.
Pull my head out of my ass? Son, have you ever seen what goes on in a sexual harassment lawsuit? I was married to a lawyer for 20 years.
There are people that make a living and get their kicks out of sticking it to every hard pecker with a business bank account that gets within a mile of a court room discussion and are ravenously hungry to make another payment on their mountain of student loan bills. If you have money, you’re doubly fucked. The line of lawyers will form to the left and it gets longer and exponentially worse the more zeroes appear in said bank account.
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Clearly you’ve never heard of Gloria Allred before.
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I think these are going to vary case by case.
In the case of doctor and patient, how often do you see said patient and if you do start being a thing are they going to keep seeing you medically or will they change that?
In the case of doctor and nurse, how direct is their management over the nurse. It may not be an issue if say you work in a hospital and the nurse dates a doctor who they dont directly work with, but if the doctor is using their position to take advantage of power to flirt/hit on/ staff in an unsolicited way, that’s a whole other ball game of scale, especially if coercion comes into play.
If it’s a student and a teacher, that’s going to depend on if that teacher directly is in charge of teaching you or works elsewhere and is unrelated to your education and progress.
If it’s martial arts, I think the dynamic has to change for the relationship to work. Take that person’s training outside of the school so the relationship doesn’t seep in, or that student does not come to those classes anymore. This assumes the relationship is not coercive.
My manager started dating one of the PT’s at our gym recently, both young, similar age, obvious day 1 attraction. Manager made sure not to be on shift with this PT and they just train together. A sensible approach, keeping work and dating seperate. That cannot always happen.
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I think the instances that you suggested show how big the grey area is, and how standards are not consistent across different fields
Less eyebrows would be raised if a boss of a factory had a relationship with a staff member than a teacher had a relationship with an adult student despite the similar unequal power dynamic
I think there’s a distinction to be made here, and that is the kind of relationship is what matters.
It seems some folks have trouble with any sort of romance in a martial arts setting, esp if one of those involved is in a coaching/instructor role, while others see zero wrong with it, yet still others treat it as if someone is being “harmed” or mistreated in some way despite the fact we’re talking about 2 consenting adults.
IMO as a question of professionalism its pretty understandable that you wouldn’t want to have your instructor romantically involved with students. As mature and well intended as it may have been, once the relationship goes sour the student leaves or maybe the Instructor leaves and the students all have to search for a new place to train. I see that as the logical reasoning and not the knee jerk of “he slept with a student, lock him up”
Other than that, I say that it would need to be considered on a case by case basis. I personally found out like 2 years after the face, that one of my coaches had been dating a student, when they decided to get married. We all found out when the wedding was announced, but for 1.5 -2 years we’d been training with the 2 and nobody was any wiser to their relationship. It was kept professional during class. There was no way to imagine the instructor was giving his GF any advantage during class or being distracted by her at all, so they did their courting the right way and kept it all about BJJ during those hours.
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