The North West Warrior Tipon Tipon is an unofficial feeder event for Dog Brothers Gatherings, in the greater Seattle Area, hosted by Muay Thai (and FMA) coach Belton Lubas, and organized by Lamont Glass of the (FMA) Blackbird Training Group.
I participate in the NWWTT to give the local Dog Brother hopefuls another body to test themselves against, I myself don’t have intentions of participating in Dog Bros, though obviously I am a fan. Caveats in my participation in this:
- I basically do the weakest, lowest impact stuff that is possible at these events. “Technical” fighting without MMA moves, Cold Steel rubber knife trainers instead of blunt metal sparring knives.
- You can’t see how massacred I am getting in some of these videos, some of these people I spar against are bonafied experts, unlike myself.
- The first time I did FMA was in 1988, but I am NOT an FMA specialist. I do a lot more knife training than I do other types of weapon training, and most FMA does more stick than knife. Because knife is secondary to them, I am able to offer them a slight challenge in knife. Most of the event is stick fighting, not knife fighting.
In both of the following videos, I am the one in the extraordinarily tasteful deer-hunting camo rash guard.
2017:
[video=youtube_share;zvB9BVFY3S4]https://youtu.be/zvB9BVFY3S4[/video]
And the following year they were ready for my bag of tricks:
2018:
[video=youtube_share;t06H8cDEEK8]https://youtu.be/t06H8cDEEK8[/video]
The kids at the end are the most active members of the weapons sparring club I am a member of.
A stupid question:
I see that in the first video you hold the knife in the rear hand, while your opponent holds the knife in the front hand.
I did fencing when I was in high school, and in fencing nodody would even think of using the weapon with the rear arm, the opponent’s advantage would be too great.
I’ve seen and heard many people proposing holding the knife with the rear hand, in order to use the other arm as a shield, but it seems to me that this makes sense only if the other guy is unarmed (otherwise he will just cut your other arm).
What is the logic of holding the knife with the rear hand?
EDIT: I see that in the secon video you first start with the weapon hand forward, but then later you switch to a backward weapon hand. Why?
[QUOTE=MisterMR;2988028]A stupid question:
I see that in the first video you hold the knife in the rear hand, while your opponent holds the knife in the front hand.
I did fencing when I was in high school, and in fencing nodody would even think of using the weapon with the rear arm, the opponent’s advantage would be too great.
I’ve seen and heard many people proposing holding the knife with the rear hand, in order to use the other arm as a shield, but it seems to me that this makes sense only if the other guy is unarmed (otherwise he will just cut your other arm).
What is the logic of holding the knife with the rear hand?
EDIT: I see that in the secon video you first start with the weapon hand forward, but then later you switch to a backward weapon hand. Why?[/QUOTE]
My naive thought seeing the style of fighting would be that one tries to use the front hand for blocking and controlling the wrist so that it can make sense to have the weapon in the rear hand if you do not want to change stances between defensive and offensive action - under the rules of this style. Makes much more sense for knives than for weapons with more range.
In self-defense, I do not see any positive sides either.
[QUOTE=MisterMR;2988028]A stupid question:
I see that in the first video you hold the knife in the rear hand, while your opponent holds the knife in the front hand.
I did fencing when I was in high school, and in fencing nodody would even think of using the weapon with the rear arm, the opponent’s advantage would be too great.
I’ve seen and heard many people proposing holding the knife with the rear hand, in order to use the other arm as a shield, but it seems to me that this makes sense only if the other guy is unarmed (otherwise he will just cut your other arm).
What is the logic of holding the knife with the rear hand?
EDIT: I see that in the secon video you first start with the weapon hand forward, but then later you switch to a backward weapon hand. Why?[/QUOTE]
In my stick and knife training we almost never put the weapon in the rear hand. But I have fought people who do. The only time we put it in the rear is when we are fighting in the false lead which is pretty fun. I’ve went against people who like to use the empty lead as an arm to hold or shield and then use the rear to stab. Like in your typical prison rush.
I also trained with a Balintawak guy who always used an empty lead when he had a knife. Their system uses a lot of inside trapping so that was the idea.
Weapon in the rear hand sacrifices range, but does give you some defensive options with the other hand that otherwise aren’t present.
It is more common if you have something else in your front hand to defend with.
Just going bare handed against a knife seems… less effective to me.
[QUOTE=MisterMR;2988028]
I see that in the first video you hold the knife in the rear hand, while your opponent holds the knife in the front hand.
[/quote]
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I have a striking background, and prefer a weak side forward stance. (Most of my footwork comes from my striking background, not my weapon background.) I was also under the influence of Esgrima Criolla (South American historical weapon fighting, most well known for poncho-in-the-weak-hand and dagger-in-the-strong-hand fighting, where they are a little more likely to go weak-side-forward than other knife fighting styles.) Also, fighting weak side forward is not recommended but discussed in the “Warrior’s Edge” videos by Lynn Thompson, which I am a huge fan of. I have developed a not-very-effective way to knife fight in an weak side forward stance leaning on the FMA & CMA truism that “the weapon is an extension of the arm.” Obviously it has had mixed results.
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I saw the 2016 NWWTT in person as a spectator, and knew very well what caliber of fighter I would be up against in 2017, way out of my league. They invited my exact-opposite-of-serious weapon sparring club to participate in the Tipon because they knew if we would pull unexpected stuff like this.
I did fencing when I was in high school, and in fencing nobody would even think of using the weapon with the rear arm, the opponent’s advantage would be too great.
I think Olympic-style Fencing is the very worst thing that has ever happened to martial arts. A broken clock is right twice a day though, and yes, going in with a weak (unarmed) side forward stance with a one handed weapon in weapon fighting is controversial.
What is the logic of holding the knife with the rear hand?
I also train with my strong side forward, if it’s not obvious from those videos. But to answer your question, let me sell the weak side forward to you from an FMA perspective (though most FMA knife fighters from what I have seen lead strong side forward): the unarmed hand is supposed to be employed in a single knife vs. single knife fight. You are supposed to block (by tapping the hand, not the knife) and strike and grab (again not the knife) with that off hand. In the first video you will hear my opponent’s coaches yelling out “use your live hand!”
The easiest way to get your weak hand in the mix is the same way an orthodox boxer keeps his left hand in the mix, which is to keep it right there between him and his opponent.
I see that in the second video you first start with the weapon hand forward, but then later you switch to a backward weapon hand. Why?
Watch carefully what happens when I transition from weapon hand forward to an orthodox (left hand forward) stance. In fencing that’s called a “fleche.” (Twice that broken clock’s been right today.) In my not-very-serious weapon-sparring-club, we call the strong foot forward stance a “defensive stance” because it’s easier to push with your strong foot away from the opponent with your footwork, and because your weapon serves as a shield between you and your opponent. The weak foot forward stance we call the “aggressive stance” because it’s easier to push towards your opponent with your strong foot, and because you have more space to wind up more powerful strikes.
[QUOTE=AcerTempest;2988055]Weapon in the rear hand sacrifices range, but does give you some defensive options with the other hand that otherwise aren’t present.
It is more common if you have something else in your front hand to defend with.
Just going bare handed against a knife seems… less effective to me.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Diesel_tke;2988040]In my stick and knife training we almost never put the weapon in the rear hand. But I have fought people who do. The only time we put it in the rear is when we are fighting in the false lead which is pretty fun. I’ve went against people who like to use the empty lead as an arm to hold or shield and then use the rear to stab. Like in your typical prison rush.
I also trained with a Balintawak guy who always used an empty lead when he had a knife. Their system uses a lot of inside trapping so that was the idea.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Falenay;2988032]My naive thought seeing the style of fighting would be that one tries to use the front hand for blocking and controlling the wrist so that it can make sense to have the weapon in the rear hand if you do not want to change stances between defensive and offensive action - under the rules of this style. Makes much more sense for knives than for weapons with more range.
[/QUOTE]
I basically agree with all of the above here. Caveats:
- Range: at close rang the weak side forward makes a lot more sense as per the “prison rush” comment above (aka shanking aka sewing machine.)
- What TYPE of weapon you have really matters quite a lot. If you must generate significant force for your weapon to be effective (like say an ice pick, improvised shiv or high quality pen) then the weak side forward stance also makes more sense.
But if you are dueling with 12 inch razor sharp Bowie knives and your fight is starting out of each other’s range, then yes going weak side forward is arguably suicidal.
[QUOTE=BFGalbraith;2988560]I basically agree with all of the above here. Caveats:
- Range: at close rang the weak side forward makes a lot more sense as per the “prison rush” comment above (aka shanking aka sewing machine.)
- What TYPE of weapon you have really matters quite a lot. If you must generate significant force for your weapon to be effective (like say an ice pick, improvised shiv or high quality pen) then the weak side forward stance also makes more sense.
But if you are dueling with 12 inch razor sharp Bowie knives and your fight is starting out of each other’s range, then yes going weak side forward is arguably suicidal.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, this makes sense to me, I was assuming a knife that was sharp enough that you don’t really need much power to hurt.
As an unrelated point, I think that olympic fencing, expecially the fleuret, is historically accurate and actually very effective given the kind of weapons and conditions (honor duels) when people used that weapons.
Fencing movements do not trabnslate well to other forms of fighting, but then also judo movements and stances don’t translate well to boxe, there isn’t really an only unified way of fighting that works well with all weapons and in all situations.
I know that many on this site disagree with my opinion on fenging, but, who cares, I’m right anyway, tssk.
[QUOTE=MisterMR;2988562]Thanks, this makes sense to me, I was assuming a knife that was sharp enough that you don’t really need much power to hurt.
[/QUOTE]
I think many FMA fighters would suggest going to a reverse grip (to generate more power with the weapon strikes) rather than a weak side forward stance, when using a less impressive improvised weapon, just for the record. I occasionally do that myself.
As an unrelated point, I think that Olympic fencing… very effective given the kind of weapons and conditions (honor duels) when people used that weapons…
The fencing thing should probably go to another thread, but in a nutshell, fencing has some good moves, and there are many related schools of martial arts that I like (Gatka single stick, various historical fencing efforts, etc.) But as an Olympic sport it has justified stop and go sparring for a century, and I personally blame it for 90% of the problems I have seen in martial arts.
[QUOTE=BFGalbraith;2989161]
The fencing thing should probably go to another thread, but in a nutshell, fencing has some good moves, and there are many related schools of martial arts that I like (Gatka single stick, various historical fencing efforts, etc.) But as an Olympic sport it has justified stop and go sparring for a century, and I personally blame it for 90% of the problems I have seen in martial arts.[/QUOTE]
It’s a bit OT so I’ll make it short, but my understanding is that modern fencing come from honor duels, so a renaissance /early modern age thing, not a middle ages thing.
Such duels were often decided at “the first blood”, meaning that the first who hits win, or for more serious offenses at the “third blood”, meaning that the first one who hits twice wins. Only in very rare cases such duels were fought “to death”.
Still those duels caused many casualties (in the hundreds yearly).
However the concept of a honor duel with witnesses etc. Is very far from our current mindset, so the idea of a regulated duel that will still often result in death is weird, and we tend to assume that fencing was taught for war or self defense ; but it wasn’t.
[QUOTE=BFGalbraith;2989161]I think many FMA fighters would suggest going to a reverse grip (to generate more power with the weapon strikes) rather than a weak side forward stance, when using a less impressive improvised weapon, just for the record. I occasionally do that myself.
[/QUOTE]
The main issue with putting the weapon in the rear hand is range not power. I can generate enough power with a stick to break bones with either hand forward. I also train to be able to switch hands at will. Power comes from training with heavy sticks and beating on things. I don’t put a weak side forward because I don’t consider myself as having a weak side. Maybe when I first started but I drilled that out a long time ago.
Indiana showing effective use of Florida’s stand your ground laws.
Bring a paint ball gun. Shoot everyone and declare yourself Champ.
[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2989170]Bring a paint ball gun. Shoot everyone and declare yourself Champ.[/QUOTE]
Or better yet, go to a paintball range and spike the opposing team’s drinking water with laxatives.
[video=youtube_share;U_eZmEiyTo0]https://youtu.be/U_eZmEiyTo0[/video]
[QUOTE=Diesel_tke;2989166]The main issue with putting the weapon in the rear hand is range not power. I can generate enough power with a stick to break bones with either hand forward. I also train to be able to switch hands at will. Power comes from training with heavy sticks and beating on things. I don’t put a weak side forward because I don’t consider myself as having a weak side. Maybe when I first started but I drilled that out a long time ago.[/QUOTE]
The obsessing over what side is over definitely comes from the strikers in our club, not the FMA influence on our club. In general we train weapon in left hand forward, weapon in right hand forward, and weapon in right hand back, but NOT weapon in left hand back. (This is gets into spear/staff stuff that is beyond the scope of this thread since we don’t do that at Tipons.)
We also have a tendency to switch back and forth between which hand we have the weapon in, but this has to do with not having as good of arm conditioning as FMA groups and our arms getting tired.